Season 2, Episode 2: Scare Bear Market: Get out! (PLEASE DON’T)

What you shouldn’t do when the market drops and gets really scary, even though you might really want to

Are we really supposed to stay in the stock market even when it does a bunch of scary shit and our account balances are going down instead of up?

Do we keep pouring more money into our retirement accounts when we’re not sure we’ll have rent money for the next six months?

Can’t our precious investment money just take a little drama-free holiday in a savings account until the shitstorm is over?

Sara tells us how to adapt our financial goals and strategies to meet this moment, without throwing in the towel…and Caitlin tells her she should really come up with some new advice.

Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions for Season 2 on our Ask Us page!

This episode was edited by Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.

Transcript for Season 2, Episode 2: Scare Bear Market: Get out! (PLEASE DON’T)

Music intro by Bad Bad Hats

Caitlin Welcome to Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough where we are figuring out finance, one dumb question at a time. I'm the dummy. Caitlin Meredith. I'm a mediator and coach based in the Bay Area.

Sara And I'm Sara Glakas. I'm an investor advisor and founder of Black Barn Financial, a registered investment advisor here in Austin, Texas, and also the founder of the Austin Women's Investing Group, which can be found on Meetup.

Caitlin Before we get started and I demand that Sara, tell me how to make $4 million in the current market. We wanted to just re iterate are thank you to everyone who's left us reviews on iTunes or done the star rating system whatever and ask anybody that hasn't that's listening if they could do just a 2/2 review which would totally help. And as usual, text three friends. Tell them about women on the verge of a financial breakthrough. I can barely say it. And help us spread the word. Okay. So as I said in our last episode, we were going to wait until the fall to do a second season. And we have all these plans. But just while we're experiencing the current downtimes and Sara's having to field questions from every single person she knows, if we're all, you know, if the economy is going to officially tank or what we wanted to do, just a little mini series to talk about right now what's happening. A lot of our episodes talk about just sort of in general what to do as investors, how to start. And this is very specific to like here and now, summer of 2022 on the time space continuum where everything looks real shitty economically. So in our last little mini episode, we got the context down, like the bear market. Is this a recession, is it not? There's an argument. So let's in that 1/1. If you want more about the context, I want to talk in general about like what the fuck we're supposed to be doing with our money right now? And you know what not to do? How to not make it worse than it already is. But one of the things Sara brought up is that there are opportunities in a bear market. There are opportunities when the market is down. So what did you mean by that, Sara?

Sara So if you look back at a stock market chart, you'll notice something really interesting. You'll notice that it trends upward up to the right, starts down at the bottom left hand corner. It trends with lots of bumps and lots of ups and downs, but it trends upward to the right. The stock market and assets in general. So talking about like real estate, any type of risky asset.

Caitlin Your cousin's boat.

Sara Not a boat.

Caitlin Not a boat.

Sara But, you know, your stocks, real estate, those types of investments that are the bulk of people's wealth, they tend to increase in price over long periods of time with, you know, with lots of volatility, which we're experiencing right now. So if you look back at a chart, you'll notice there are some pretty major dips in that chart, a major one back in 2000, 2001 when the dot com bubble burst, another big one, 2007 to 2009 during the great financial crisis when housing prices collapsed and then banks almost collapsed. And we had a very serious downturn. And then you'll see another dip at the beginning of 2016, at the end of 2018, during March of 2020, and then the one we're in now. So if you look back at one of these charts, you know, if you zoom out and you think like, well, I'm trying to keep my money invested for longer than one year or five years or ten years. You can start seeing that so far, except for where we are right now. Every decline in the stock market has reversed itself, and the stock market has not only made up all of those losses, but has continued to trend higher over long periods of time.

Caitlin I think one of the deceptive things about what you're saying, I'm not accusing you of being a liar, but you just say like these dips and that dip seems like, oh, you know, put your toe in this little quick experience that you barely feel like dip or and actually the dip, what we're in now doesn't feel like a dip. It feels like a slow, long plunge into, you know, deep quicksand or something. And so I guess you only see it's a it only looks like a dip when you're on the other side right during it. It feels like the cliff.

Sara That is absolutely true. And I shouldn't use the term dip for what happened in 2000 and 2007. Those were legitimate market crashes where the stock market lost 50% over, you know, a matter of. Months or years, you know, a 10% decline is probably a better you know, a better use of the word dip, a 20% decline like what we're in now. You know, like we talked about on our last episode is a bear market. Right. Which is it's pretty serious. 20% is enough to get everyone's attention. And it it doesn't feel good. It feels it's it's painful. 20% is, you know, the point at which most people are like, just make it stop. Like, yeah, whatever I have to do to make it stop. This isn't fun anymore. I don't want to do this. I want all my money back that I had six months ago. I wish I could go back in time. This sucks. So we are officially well into that point, I would say this year. Yeah.

Caitlin Okay. But then I think the only catch phrase that I know about the stock market, even including the time that I've known you, is buy low. Sell high. So we're in the low. Right. So, like, this is buying season.

Sara I mean, we're lower than we were six or seven months ago. Right. You know, I think with buy low, sell high, I think it's absolutely what you need to remember. And the longer you have, the better. You know, the other piece that is important to remember is that just because you're buying load does not mean it can't go lower. But as prices go down and as we just put days and months behind us in trying to resolve all of these problems that we have right now, you're getting closer and closer to the end, right? You're getting closer and closer to the time when prices stop falling. And the other super, super important thing to remember is you are not going to know when it's over. There's no bells ringing. There's no all clear signal. You can go an entire bull market when prices are going up. Waiting to finish the bear market that ended five years ago.

Caitlin Let me understand this. Okay. So you as a investor investment advisor, don't get a call in the middle of the night being like, we hit it, we hit the bottom.

Sara Get word, grab.

Caitlin Everything you can get right now because tomorrow the market's going back up. You don't get that call. Nobody gets that call.

Sara No, but people love making that call. Like people will love saying we we bottomed in June of 2022. June 16th was the bottom.

Caitlin So people love, but they say that in the future, they don't say it on June 16th.

Sara No, they don't say it. They'd normally don't say it on June 16th. A couple people will go back in time that maybe they said it on Twitter and then they'll parade that out and tell you about it for the rest of their lives. I remember when I called the June 16th bottom. But so you everybody has an opinion as to. So right now it's July 29th. Our most recent lows were June 16th ish. Now's the time when people are debating whether June 16th were the lows, whether we need to retest those lows, which means go back to them and touch them again, or whether this increase in the stock market that we've seen since June 16th, whether this is a good old fashioned bear market rally, which is what sucks people back into the market, they think it's over, and then it destroys your hopes and dreams by falling again even more in the future.

Caitlin You thought you were so clever for buying when it was so low, and then whatever you put in as further death, it is decimated. And so you feel like an idiot. Exactly. For those of us who have decades until we retire. And so our retirement accounts are like, you know, a little abstract right now. It's one thing to tell us, just be like, hold on tight. You're in it for the long haul, whatever. But I can imagine someone who is on the brink of retiring or already retired being like, Fuck this, I'm taking all my shit out. Yeah. And then I'll put it back in when it's going back up like. So I want to avoid the worst of it. I that feels psychologically like such a calming plan, like, oh, I won't have to watch those numbers go down anymore. But now you're telling me no one can predict when the bottom is. So what if you wait and the next morning they're up to higher? You have to buy all your stuff back for even more expensive. Am I making any sense at all?

Sara Absolutely. That is exactly the plan that people come up with during a bear market. That sounds very reasonable. Yeah, I'm just going to jump out and then when it goes down, more them to buy back in or like you said, I'm just going to wait for it to come up the other side because it's going to look like a nice you, right?

Caitlin Yeah, I'll be there. I'll have, you know, a whole week.

Sara Right. I'll just mark my calendar. I'll get back in it. You know, S&P 4100. It is so hard, if not impossible, to execute this plan because what we just talked about now, it's July 29th. We're trying to figure out, is this the beginning of a new bull market? Is it a bear market bounce where we will go back to 3600 on the S&P? Or is this halfway through a crash? That's what we're trying to decide right now. Right. And that is always what you're going to be trying to decide every single time. And so what happens to people who jump out with the intention of getting back in is they either never get back in. I think Barry Ritholtz is this really great commentator on Bloomberg. I think he pointed out a stat the other day that said something like 33% of people that sell during a crash, 33% never get back in. So now you've just disintegrated 25% of your portfolio, never to earn it back. And for people who jump out and then try to jump back in. Most often they buy back in at higher prices. So they just sold low and bought high.

Caitlin Well, the compounding interest part gets all messed up. But tell me. Just tell me this in a very practical way. Let's say I'm 70 and I'm thinking I'll live till 85. 90. I had $500,000, which, you know, would seems like a ton of money to me right now. But, you know, if I'm living for another 20 years without income might not be enough, depending on medical needs, etc.. So I have $500,000 in the market. It used to be, you know, a year ago it was 750. So I was feeling golden. And then now it's at five and I like cannot bear to see that number go below five. For some reason, 500,000. For another, an understandable reason, it feels like, to see that number in my portfolio go lower. It's too traumatizing. So I just say, pull it, sell everything. Put that in my savings account. What are the possible things that actually happened to that $500,000? Like, what is the range of possibilities for that amount of money?

Sara I mean, the range of possibilities are that $500,000 sits in cash at 0% for the rest of this person's life. Right. And they have now exposed themselves to longevity and inflation risk over time. Right.

Caitlin Like because the cat if there's great inflation there, cash is less and worth less and less. Like it's still $500,000. But that will buy a lot less in ten years. Right.

Sara Right. Stocks can recover. Stocks can recover. And eventually, over longer periods of time, keep pace with inflation. Cash cannot cash can't doesn't adjust. Right. You know, maybe your savings account will go from 0%, 2.5 or 1% or 2%. Right. But that's still not enough. So what you're doing is instead of having some portion of your money in something that at least has a chance to grow, you've now put all of your dollars in something that is guaranteed to not grow. So you've you've collapsed your your range of outcomes and you've saved yourself more downside and you've gotten rid of all of that upside. So you've just locked in. Where you are unless you come back to it at some point and say, boo, like I actually can't afford to be in cash for the rest of my life. I have to get it back in. Well, now it's really challenging, right? Went like, how does that happen? When does that happen? What sort of risk tolerance do you have going forward after having this experience? So that is a really, really tricky situation.

Caitlin But help me understand this. So if I sell off my portfolio and I have $500,000 in my savings account, and then two months later, three months later, a year later, the market's on the upswing. And I just say, okay, put it all in an index fund now. So I start I put $500,000 in the index fund that was that I owned before, and now I rebuy it. Wouldn't I just continue on my journey then, as if nothing had ever happened.

Sara Except that you've probably missed the increase in prices, I'm assuming in your scenario. Why did you say it was a few months or a few years?

Caitlin Let's say a year? I don't know. I don't know what the time period where I could feel better about it. But yeah, I'm trying to conceptualize this idea that the prices would be higher because I only have that amount of money, so I'm just putting the $500,000. But I think the piece I'm missing is I can buy fewer shares with that amount of money. And so when they increase in value, I don't get as much profit from that.

Sara Right. You cut into your rate of return, right? Because you've probably missed there's something happened in the market that now convinced you that it's safe to get back in. Right. And I'm 99.9% sure. The thing that has happened is the stock market has gone up. Right. So you missed that. You missed that first leg up. You know, you get in after prices are higher. And it could be that maybe you didn't miss that much time and you go about your way and you correct some of your mistakes. Yeah, but for most people missing out on that initial rebound, it leaves a mark on your retirement account, if you can imagine, like how people actually behave. You get really scared. You pull all of your money out of the market.

Caitlin Right.

Sara What are the things that need to happen to convince you that it's time to get back?

Caitlin Things look great again.

Sara Right. And why do they seem great?

Caitlin Because it shot up.

Sara Right?

Caitlin So you're like, hey, people are making money.

Sara Right? Right. Oh, wait. Right. It's that shooting up. And, like, this comes in spurts and it's unexpected, and it happens really fast. Right. A 10% increase in the stock market can happen in a matter of days.

Caitlin Yeah.

Sara And so you're. You're behind, right? And you're like, well, okay, I'm gonna put my 500,000 back in the market. What if it falls by 10%?

Caitlin Yeah.

Sara Right. Then what are you going to do? Or are you going to keep jumping in and out? Like, right. Like so taking that long term strategy and shifting into a short term strategy where you jump in and out, you're really kind of getting sucked in to. A game you can't win.

Caitlin You have so many more decisions to make. Yes, to every day.

Sara Your decision tree gets really messed up because you have to make the decision. When am I going to sell? When am I going to buy? Back in. And am I going to sell again? Right when things get bad, because then you're on that rinse repeat cycle of buying high, selling low, which is the opposite of what you should be doing. Right. And once you do that a few times, then your confidence is going to be shot. And then it's just it's hard to behaviorally recover from that.

Caitlin Yeah. And I imagine, too, that, like enduring watching your portfolio, that was 500,000, you know, at the beginning of the month and towards, you know, two months later is down to 350,000 is just I mean, that ignites so many fears and nightmares for us about like literally how will I feed myself, you know, all of those things. So the only option is to not look, if what you're saying is the long term health is to just stay in with the faith that it'll go back in. The only option is to not look.

Sara Yeah, it's it's so hard. Like, I've had so many of these conversations this year because and I totally get why this happens. But the the rationale is I see my accounts falling by $5,000 a week. Eventually I'm going it's going to go to zero at this pace. It's going to go to zero. And then I'm going have nothing and no chance to recover. Right. I may as well get out now. At least I have something.

Caitlin Right.

Sara Right. And that's exactly it. It totally makes sense, right. When you think about it in those terms over that period of time. So like, you either get caught in the trap that we just talked about of being in cash, and then what's your next decision? What's your next move or what a lot of people are able to do is just set it aside, come back. Let's talk about it again at the end of the summer. I've had a lot of conversations at the beginning of the summer about just keeping the status quo, like recognizing the fear and the panic, putting a pin in it, coming back at the end of the summer. And let's see what's happened. Right. Let's see what's happened in your life. Let's see if you don't, do you have enough cash savings to get through it? Do you have you know, are you able to keep your job? Like, what do things look like at the end of summer? And then can we make a decision based on what what happens there? So taking what seems like a long chunk of time and making it a shorter period of time and giving people permission to take a break from needing to follow the market or check their balances or kind of internalize all of that. If they if they feel like they just need to step away, which is a great option, is just like take a vacation, go surfing, just turn off alerts. Come back in a year, two years, if you got it right.

Caitlin It's so funny. I thought this episode was going to be what to do. And actually what we're just saying is like, do not do this. Do not get out in this way because the train will leave without you and you'll be there at the station with your ticket that is invalid anymore. So you have to go buy a second ticket. And so it's really but this is just crazy because our advice was the same a year ago, which is just, you know, invest in you just like just close the the window that shows your your account balance. And it's like even now we're supposed to do that. Like, that's crazy advice. I totally got it when it was stable and everything was looking like rosy, but now is the real test of that. And it's sort of shocking that that advice doesn't change.

Sara I know it is shocking, isn't it? You know, if we listen to this episode five years from now, and I'm saying that the S&P is just under 4100, the expectation it doesn't matter what it is, if it's if it's if it's around 40, 105 years from now, we look back and S&P is now at almost 8000, we're going to be like, yeah, that 12 days.

Caitlin The is right and I listened and I just closed my I went surfing and I just yeah. Okay okay.

Sara I mean that's the expectation, right? Is like double it where it is now. Double it. That's the goal. And it's not even just like the goal, it's the expectation. It doesn't mean that it will definitely happen. We come back five years from now and we're still at 4100. Then this advice will not have aged well. Right.

Caitlin But what is important is that the alternative, at least when the alternative is cash, is that won't age. Well, either.

Sara Exactly right. At least you have a chance.

Caitlin And so choice people who are stuck start collecting.

Sara So yeah if you are if you're if you're an investor who's out there in the world looking at all of these different opportunities, and you find something where you think you can double your money in the next five to 7 to 10 years in a less risky way than stocks. Then you should totally do that. Right. Like, are you in real estate crypto? I know. Like, like, whatever it is. Like, are you like an invest in your brother in law's bar or something, right? Like, and you're pretty sure you're going to knock it out of the park and double your investment or if it's something like a real estate project that someone is doing or crypto if you're into that type of thing. Right. Or starting a business or whatever it is, run the numbers. Please run the numbers and see like, does this other idea have as good or better chance of doubling my money in the next 5 to 7 years? If yes, then that's a viable option. But cash, no, there is no chance, 0% chance that your cash will double in the next 5 to 7 years. No chance to.

Caitlin Change all children's like classic children's tales about the value of saving your money and having a little savings, piggy bank, all that because it's really there's like a fetish of like how safe having your big savings and your cash all that is. And it's a lie, people it's a lie.

Sara If you already have a bunch of money and your goal is to keep it safe, then cash is perfect. Right. But most of us are creating the wealth that we're planning to live off of in the future. Right. Savings doesn't like your savings account does not create wealth. It preserves it. So if you win the lotto and or if you have a big inheritance or you get like a windfall at work or whatever, if you have a bunch of money and you're like, You know what? I like.

Caitlin Money.

Sara This is good. Well, this is good for the rest of my life. Like, I couldn't, you know, I could never, you know, outlive this money. Like, this is the this is a great amount. It's more than I'll ever need.

Caitlin I don't think those people are listening to our podcast.

Sara I know. Exactly. Then, you know, this is the wrong podcast for you, right? Because you're probably like Scrooge McDuck, like swimming through your gold coins.

Caitlin To the yacht podcast people.

Sara Right? But the rest of us are like, we don't have enough yet. How do we get enough? You can either scrimp and save your way by not spending a lot, or you need that money to grow. Right. And so that's what this podcast is for, right? Because most of us need the money to grow bigger, so we have to put it at risk and taking those risks. But the returns manifest by taking the risk when it feels risky. That's like the whole point, right? Like, right now, it feels really risky out there. That's why you would expect a higher rate of return over time. You don't get a higher rate of return over time by playing it safe and waiting for the market to recover and go higher before you get back in. So that's the tradeoff that we always have.

Caitlin The trade off for the person who can't sleep for a month because their once robust portfolio went down after retirement, went down to 350,000. But the tradeoff, they they do a vision board skidding, never done right. But okay, something like that where they imagine like in ten years it's $1,000,000 or something like that and not crazy numbers. But that like realistically given the history of the market and average increases and recovery from bear markets, that the reward for having endured that month of thinking they were going to, you know, lose all of their money will be earning that money, growing, actually going in the other direction so that they tolerated the risk and that they got a reward for, you know, enduring the lowest of the low.

Sara Part of this is being realistic about what shoring up your short term risks look like if you are at risk of losing your job in a recession. Please make sure that you have enough set aside to get through that, even if it means. So what did we talk about the other day? Even if it means stopping your retirement contributions, if you're still working, even if it means selling and putting that some portion of that money in cash, I'd like to start with 1 to 2 years of living expenses. Well, dear, if if you if you are, like, at risk of losing your job and you can't foresee a way that you could pay the bills, you know, over a long period of time. So like for a lot of people, like for me, this is parents, you know, but women who are staying at home with their kids, maybe they have some cash needs. They know they need an extra $1,000 per month to make ends meet while they're home with the kids. What's 1000 times 24? $24,000? Put that in the bank.

Caitlin Oh, my God.

Sara And leave the rest aside, right where they don't have like an income lever they can realistically pull in the short term. On the other side of the spectrum, maybe you either have really good job security or you have a lot of flexibility. If I lose this job, I'll get another one. If I lose this job, I'll get a comparable job or I'll take whatever job I'll drive an Uber or I'll pick up gigs in order to make it work. Yeah, right. You have to be really, really focused on what a recession lay off. No income type of emergency looks like for you and then plan accordingly. Right, because it's different for everybody.

Caitlin This is what's so shocking for me to hear you say, because it's equally shocking that one big piece of advice that you have stays exactly the same in this market and another one shifts dramatically. So the piece of advice that stays the same is don't look at your retirement accounts or your brokerage account, whatever. Don't look. Just hang in there. Assuming you have index funds and the kinds of funds we've talked about. So you're not on like really risky individual stocks. That's that's not what we're talking about here. The piece of advice that has changed when 80 is stop investing right now, this might be a point where you stop investing if your job could be at risk in the near future. And so prioritizing the savings, cash money that you have in your emergency fund rather than the long term investment. And that that's that's a funny for me, strange to hear those words come out of your mouth, but it totally makes sense.

Sara Yeah. I mean, and it's for that scenario, which is not everybody's scenario. I think one of the scenarios the people throw out is, you know, I have a job, I have an emergency fund, the market's going down. Should I stop investing in the market until it goes back up? Right. Which is more like, can I avoid the downturn? Right. Like it's like, why would I invest if it's just.

Caitlin If it's just going to go just.

Sara Yeah, right. And it's just like throwing money, like, down the drain that is different. That advice is, you know, if you are all shored up in the short term and a recession isn't really a risk to you, please keep investing.

Caitlin Keep the habit.

Sara Yeah, keep the habit. You're buying low. It doesn't feel like it now, but it will eventually. You'll look back and be like, I'm really glad I did that. So like toggling those retirement contributions because of what your actual financial risks are versus toggling that based on where you think the market is going to go are two different things. Okay. And people fall into it all different kinds of camps. These are just, you know, things that come up during bear markets that don't come up.

Caitlin During the.

Sara Better markets.

Caitlin I just think it's so valuable for you to give people permission to stop investing if right now their actual dollars that are coming in really need to be there for a buffer that could be used and real time sooner rather than later. And so adjusting, you know, because obviously we're making this podcast to get people to understand how to grow their money and to get into retirement and how to be financially savvy. But part of that is realizing when you're not in a in a place to invest. Yes. And even though that is super important over your lifespan, that there are going to be chapters where actually your priority is allowed to be the here and now in the near-term rather than the long term.

Sara Right. I mean, and it hopefully doesn't involve like that. It's not cash everything out. Right. And get perfectly safe. It's, you know, what are what are small things you can do that will give you? Peace of mind and or shore up that short term concern and give you the space to leave the rest of your investments in there. So you're not in a panic situation where the feeling is, I have to sell everything and go to cash during a downturn. There's lots of gray area in there that we can play with and lots of different components that you might be surprised at how good it feels, how to turn off your contributions and see your savings account grow, because that gives you an extra month of living expenses. And now you can sleep at night and you can go back and turn on your account contributions a couple of months down the road. Maybe there is an opportunity missed there to buy stocks cheap, but you are able to fine tune your own plan to keep it on the rails, right?

Caitlin I think that distinction is so important. The difference here is not contributing more rather than cashing out what's already in there. Right. And saving that, if I don't think you would say it's even a last ditch thing to save, I think you would say over my cold dead body to cash out. But let's just say in this scenario where obviously people have to make very difficult individual choices based on financial realities for their whole family. So we're not here to judge or say anybody's stupid, but that as a way of preparing for a recession or responding to the fact that you might have job insecurity or not sure that in prioritizing your short term savings at the expense of adding more to your retirement accounts is a sound, smart financial decision to make that you can always reverse. You can always go back to the way that it was.

Sara Right. It's a low stakes reversible tactic that can give you more security and is is like on that decision tree much easier to start making your contributions again versus trying to figure out when to take your whole retirement account and put it back in the market because you just cashed it out.

Caitlin Right, right. In that cash would be so vulnerable if it was in my checking account, I'd be like, Oh, just a little bit here, a little bit there. But also I it just made me think of that. People that are able to stop the investment and have a bulkier savings, that means they have a lot more cash. And it's funny because we're also saying like cash is a 0% increase, but we're not talking about as an investment, as a growth strategy. It's a survival strategy. It's paying the bills in real time. So even though it's more susceptible to inflation, that's over a much longer time horizon, you know that in the next two years, whatever, $24,000 is still going to equal, you know, maso menos, $24,000, right? Whereas over ten years that is not true.

Sara Right?

Caitlin Okay. Oh, my God. This is a lot to compute. I need a chocolate milkshake.

Sara I know. Yeah. Bear markets are rough. It's rough out there, people. But that's why it makes sense to talk to other people about what they're doing, what they're concerned about. I talk to other people who have weathered periods like this in the past because you'll get an idea of of what? Like, what could you give up by making a decision out of fear? Right. Yeah, I would really actually be giving up more financial security in the long run in order to get a sense of security in the short run. So it's it's tricky out there if you can stick with it. Stick with it.

Caitlin Okay. That is so useful to hear that. I mean, like anyway, it's managing our own emotions, our own reactions that are so deep rooted in our own childhood relationship to finance and security and all of that stuff. So it's not easy, but it's nice to have some guidelines. Thank you so much, Sara.

Sara Yeah, you're welcome.

Music transition by Bad Bad Hats

Caitlin Okay. I feel like everybody totally gets what not to do right now with your money. Next episode, episode three. And this little mini season two is going to be what actually you could do and how to take advantage of some of this downturn, recession adjacent activity. Okay, so stay tuned for our episode three.

Music transition by Bad Bad Hats

Hey, before we go, thank you so much to Kelly West, who co-produced and edited this episode. And we have many exciting things coming in season two. If you want to keep up, you can follow Sara on Twitter at Sara. On the Verge. You can follow or like our Facebook page. Women on the Verge podcast and sign up for our newsletter on our website. WomenontheVerge.com will let you know what's brewing. If your partner is making you ask for money, giving you an allowance are not letting you know about family income. This could be economic abuse.

Sara Learn more at thehotline.org, or call one 800 799 safe.

Music outro by Devmo

Devmo I know the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in gold, the flick of the wrist it could turn a hot bitch cold, to get what you want in life girl you gotta be bold. Now Imma die rich, and I know...

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