Season 4, Episode 11: What to Consider When You’re Leaving the Workforce

The Questions Couples Should Answer Before One Person Stays Home to Take Care of the Kiddos

What’s the point of having a salary if the whole thing goes to paying for daycare?

The back-of-the-napkin math for many couples says that it’s “cheaper” for one partner to stay home and take care of the kids because childcare is so freaking expensive.

Because statistically women earn less than men (how is this still true??), in heterosexual couples, it often “makes more sense” for it to be the woman who steps out of the workforce in the child-chasing years until some undetermined “later”.

In this episode, Caitlin and Sara get help from pod favorite Kacie Swartz to lay out all of the questions women and couples should ask and answer while making that decision, and what financial and professional decisions might protect the financial and emotional well-being of the family during and after that transition.

“There’s a math answer and there’s a heart answer - and they are not always the same.” said Yoda. Or, whoops, Kacie. Kacie said that.

And also she and Sara talk about how that math answer might only be a short term one, and the longer-term math equation is totally different. There’s a lot to consider here. And Kacie is hella funny so it’s fun to consider.

As always, you can find fan favorite podcast guest Kacie Swartz at Black Barn Financial.

Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions, or just say hi! on our Ask Us page!

We have the social medias!! Here’s our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn.

This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.

Transcripts for Season 4, Episode 11: What to Consider When You’re Leaving the Workforce

Caitlin [00:00:04] Welcome to Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough, where we're figuring out finance one dumb question at a time. I'm Caitlin Meredith, a mediator and coach based in the Bay Area.

Sara [00:00:18] I'm Sara Glakas, investor, advisor, and founder of Blackbarn Financial, and the Austin Women's Investing Group, which you can find on Meetup.

Caitlin [00:00:26] Can you think of a woman who could use a little money motivation and send her this episode? And please, if you can, leave us a review. They help more women find the show and make us feel like a million dollars pretext.

Caitlin [00:00:49] Kacie, do you know that we get reviews like on Apple Podcasts that specifically mention I love their guest Kacie?

Kacie [00:00:56] Is it all my sister Jessica?

Caitlin [00:01:01] I don't think so. I mean one's Jess and one's Jesse, so I don't think so. Yeah

Caitlin [00:01:07] so I think as I said the last time you came on back by popular demand, truly. Yeah. She's doing listeners, she's that thing where you're celebrating yourself by putting two hands up and dancing.

Kacie [00:01:20] Yeah. I wish I could have like walk on music. This sounds this is very kind of you guys, thank you. What would be your walk on song, Kacie? Okay, so weirdly enough, we had an opportunity the other day for me to actually have walk on music. For this a

Caitlin [00:01:36] In town? Because you were so well you just take a moment to say what you were celebrated for, Kacie.

Kacie [00:01:41] God. Yes, thank you so much for accepting all of my verbal cues to praise me. But the Austin Business Journal had a women in business event the other day, and I was named one of the finalists. And lovely. My name and it was all alphabetical. And so Swartz is near the end of the list, right? And so as everybody's getting their awards, there's different walk-up music. And here at our little table, we're all like, ooh, that's a good one. I like that one. What would you use? You know, all that. And then when they got to me, I was like, holy moly, I was so surprised. But my music was You Drive Me Crazy by Britney Spears. Drive Me Crazy. But I think that they chose it because it kind of sounds like drive me Kacie. You think they put that much thought into it? I don't know. Perhaps it was the universe.

Caitlin [00:02:29] Caitlin committee. Okay, but what we're really here, gathered here today to talk about is I'm gonna try to phrase this concisely. The questions couples should answer before one of the partners gets out of the workforce in order to raise the children. And I will tell you from my experience, the usual what I hear. Some people know, like when I have a baby, I want to be home for the first year. That is exactly what I want to do, and I want to build our lives around that. We're talking about the situation where the a couple does the math and they say, This is how much child care costs. Oh my god, how did that happen? And then compares it to one partner's salary, usually the woman's, but not always, and says, at this point, we're almost we're it's almost like breaking even. Like it could even cost more for the this partner to work because when you factor in like wardrobe, tolls, gas, all of those other things that go along with working, that it actually like from a financial standpoint for this year's in ins and outs doesn't make sense for this parent to work. So they leave the workforce. And we want to talk about The kind of factors that might not be considered in that decision when it's made for sort of for the short term and based on that math. So of course I wanted to ask Sara and Kacie. I have some like takes on it from my work as a divorce coach and a mediator and just like person who knows other people.

Sara [00:04:15] Person with friends. Person with friends.

Kacie [00:04:18] Guys, we are middle aged. Like the statistics do not lie. We know a lot of people that have been through this exactly.

Caitlin [00:04:25] Yes. And I have a different perspective at fifty with an eleven year old than I did when my daughter was born. This would have been a very different, very different conversation. So we're gonna talk about it now. And I think something that Sara, Kacie, and I talked about before we started is really we're all about empowering women, especially to make choices that make sense for them. So none of this is like you shouldn't be doing this or you shouldn't be doing that. It's that we want everybody to have this information as they're making these choices. It's not a judgment about who decides to step out of the workforce. Like the end of this won't be like, so if you're stepping out of the workforce, you made a terrible decision. And it's like I think that's on all of our minds as we discuss this. Like the intent here is information that not just a woman should have, that should be a dynamic partner conversation with the long term and short term and medium term needs of the partnership and family taking into account. So I've I've set the table, Kacie and Sara. Anybody want to take their first bite? Sara?

Sara [00:05:42] No, no, no. I don't want to take the first fight.

Kacie [00:05:46] Okay, great. Then I have a huge plan to divide this cake with my beautiful little cake server. Okay, so I want to start off with the idea that when people are starting a family, we are assuming that they're starting the family on purpose, right? That it's not an accident. And and that you have the time to kind of make these kind of decisions or these thoughts, which this is a certain group of people, but I'm gonna base it on that assumption because that's makes it easier to have this conversation.

Caitlin [00:06:19] Yeah.

Kacie [00:06:20] So when you are starting a family and you're doing all of the the thinking, part of that thinking is about like how are we going to make income? And the things that I say to people in all different types of situations, but this one in particular, is that there is a math answer, but there is also a heart answer. And those are not necessarily the same. And you don't have to go with the math answer.

Caitlin [00:06:45] Yeah. Yeah.

Kacie [00:06:47] And I say that because the second inscription on this particular tablet of Kacie Advice is that kids are a season and it's a very cash poor season, right?

Caitlin [00:07:04] That crop is not getting a really good return.

Kacie [00:07:06] No, we're not getting enough sunlight on that one. You're probably gonna survive, but you're not gonna thrive necessarily. And and I am feeling that specifically because my littlest just started kindergarten, which means that we have now ended daycare and the twelve hundred dollars a month that I was spending on daycare is the bulk of it's coming back into our pocket now. We call it the Range Rover money. We have no intentions of buying a Range Rover, but we certainly could afford a Range Rover payment on what we were spending on daycare. And and I think that this is one of those things that is an unfortunate truth that you just have to live through the montage. You know, like when you're in a movie and they're redoing the house. Yeah.

Caitlin [00:07:55] Often the baby's room, in fact. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ladder and the painting and the you're always in overalls. She's always in overalls.

Kacie [00:08:04] Yeah.

Caitlin [00:08:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kacie [00:08:05] Guys, when's the last time you owned overalls? I mean I will if I'm in a movie. Yeah. Okay. I guess if I was pregnant, maybe I would try. But anyway, you're absolutely right. That the it's one of those things, like you it really sucks to live through it and just feel your money dwindling or feel your savings not growing. But it is part of the plan. That money is going towards a different asset, and the asset is those darn children. Yeah. So that's my my first point of view. Sara, would you like to expound?

Sara [00:08:40] I think that is a fabulous point. I mean, because I think, Kacie, you've probably done this and I've done this with clients as well, which is when they're starting down this season, and you deliver the news that you are not going to be able to s save any money, and in fact, you are going to be making withdrawals from any accounts you have have built to date. I've gone through and made plans with people where we say something to the effect of, okay, your kids will be out of daycare or out of this expensive season seven years from now. Let's set goals for that year seven, which is okay, maybe you came in with a hundred thousand dollars. Our goal is to get out of year seven with something left in that account, right? And be mindful of what a budget might look like, but also just fully embrace this idea that it is so incredibly difficult to make financial headway during that, especially when your kids are very small. Of course, you can extend that season if kids go to private school or have special needs, all of those things. But I do think that it's it's pretty common, I think, for people who are starting a family to come in and say, we're gonna continue to save in our four o' one K and our savings account, like we have been doing. Kacie laughing heartily.

Kacie [00:10:15] Oh my god, yes. We're w we we're I mean, it's just the same thing as those stories you see on the internet where people are like, Oh, I'm just gonna live my life and add a kid You're like, Sure, sure you are.

Sara [00:10:26] Or which I mean I'm so ashamed now to think back to before I had kids when you're like, it doesn't have to be that expensive. Like that that old mantra, right? Like, we'll just put the baby in a drink.

Caitlin [00:10:35] I'll just put the baby in a drawer. I don't need a crib. It's like that is the least of your expenses.

Sara [00:10:41] Everything is free. Yeah.

Caitlin [00:10:44] My labor, my time, my energy. Yeah. But this is really reassuring for me to hear from you guys because I think what also happens when your babies are born is you're like, I want them to have every opportunity. I want them to go, you know, you're thinking about college. So you're also anticipating all of this enrichment. We're gonna travel the world. You know, maybe not everybody has that one, but like you're thinking about all these things where you're gonna need more money than you have now. And that is coincides with the time while you're not gonna have very much money. And so there's a big tension there and you're set up to already feel like you're failing because not only are you not adding to your 401k, like what about the college saving? You're already behind on that, and it's the most expensive time if you are having child care, or if you're not having child care and you're foregoing someone's income, that's expensive. Either way you do it is really expensive.

Kacie [00:11:44] The other thing that that I have run across too is the experience where p the two partners are working and one partner absolutely hates their job with or without kids.

Caitlin [00:11:56] Yeah.

Kacie [00:11:57] And and when we're in the situation of I will die if I have to keep working here. It is not worth it. I have I have a checklist we can run through together to say, What do we need to do to make it so that you can afford to earn less money? Because you cannot stay at a role that is killing you softly. You have got to get out, go do something else. Yeah. And how can we make that work?

Caitlin [00:12:25] Yeah. Yeah. I I identify with that too. Of feeling like, No, I signed up for this. Like we have a mortgage, I have a car, like I this was before kids. Like this is the adult contract. Having a job you hate is kinda can you can build that into the narrative of this is what it means to be an adult. And so I'm kinda here and you can feel very stuck in that. So I appreciate that you can walk people through of like you're not as stuck as you might think you are. And then you add kids into the mix and that can be even louder for someone, like there's no choices anymore.

Kacie [00:13:01] Have you guys okay, so it's like the end of summer, right? And I spent every possible minute I could at the beach, which because it's my happy place. However, it reminded this is reminding me of that experience where it's the end of the day, the kids are tired and they've turned into little assholes, and they want you to carry them. Yeah. And trying to walk across sand carrying two children.

Caitlin [00:13:25] With like a chair, an umbrella.

Kacie [00:13:27] Oh, and the chair, like the pointy edge of the chair is always like digging into the back of your arm. Oh God. Yes. So that's what I'm that's exactly what I'm picturing. Like it's hard enough to walk across sand, aka you know, take a step back from your career. And it's even harder when you're carrying two struggling, screaming, sandy children. Yeah.

Caitlin [00:13:50] Yeah.

Kacie [00:13:50] Yeah.

Caitlin [00:13:51] So when people like that's the situation where you don't like your job. So you might welcome this idea, like, oh, too bad. I I can't work. Child care is so expensive. Okay. And maybe in that situation, or just like my job is fine, or I I love my job, but it doesn't pay enough to justify childcare, or it doesn't pay enough to pay for child care. So I literally, we can't afford child care. What are the what's the checklist there for the considerations the couple? Because we can see the immediate math on that envelope. Like you make $42,000, childcare costs $37,000. Like, really is this worth it? I can totally get that. But I feel like now that I'm in another season where peep marriages are not, you know, there's divorce happening. There's a different appreciation of what staying in the workforce might have meant to to the person who hasn't been in it. And I it's motivated me to think about like within those constraints, what are the things they could have talked about before this situation? So that's where I come to you guys.

Sara [00:15:03] Yeah, I think the first thing that I think about is, you know, Caitlin, how we've talked about the idea of compounding on most of the episodes over the over the seasons that we've done this, right?

Caitlin [00:15:18] That's hilarious. Shots.

Sara [00:15:20] Right. So the idea that that you're investing in something and that thing grows at some rate over some period of time. So the stock market, we expect the stock market to double every seven to ten years. Like you expect your salary to grow as well over time. But that really only works if you are in the workforce participating in that natural salary growth. You don't get to step out typically, you don't get to step out of the workforce and then step back in at the salary you would have been at had you stayed in the workforce because you're losing skills and you're falling behind the the the skills needed for that job every year you're out of the workforce. That for me is the the hidden piece. That is not that initial calculation of I make forty two thousand dollars, I have daycare expenses of thirty seven thousand dollars, why would I work for five thousand dollars a year? That's dumb. I'm not gonna do that, right?

Caitlin [00:16:31] Yeah.

Sara [00:16:32] When there is a calculation, like what do you expect your salary to be at ten years from now if you do stay in the workforce?

Caitlin [00:16:40] Yeah.

Sara [00:16:41] Because I think we would hope that when your kids get through that season and maybe they're in school or they just don't need such high levels of care, like they do, like infant care is just so expensive, right? Little kid care so expensive. That eventually they won't need that that level of cost. What is your salary going to be like five years, ten years down the road? And are you participating in that? Right? Because I think this is very, very common knowledge that if you step out of the workforce, that compounding asset is no longer working in your favor. If anything, it starts depreciating.

Caitlin [00:17:26] Yes, because once if you were to go back and look for a same job, you would be, if not entry level, like maybe not if you had enough it depending on your degrees, but you would certainly not be the person who had gotten the bonuses and the promotions and sort of worked your way up the system. And I this is the first time we've talked about compounding outside of like an investment account. So I find this fascinating. I hadn't like globalized that term in terms of thinking about like your labor investment in something also compounds and your sort of professional recognition, the connections that you make, the networking that you're doing, the like industry expertise, whatever that comes along with your job, that is compounding as well when you're in the workforce. And I think I when you first said compounding, I thought you meant, oh, because if there's like a workplace investment like retirement account, you would have been putting in maybe the minimum, you know, something and just thinking about that compounding, which could also be a factor. If you're if you don't have a job, you're not putting money into the job's retirement account. But this other idea that we ourselves like compound value over time, that's radical. And that's my experience as like a 50-year-old woman right now. So I love that. But Kacie, you have something to add.

Kacie [00:18:52] Yes, and the thing that I I want to add to the idea of the dollars and the professional growth and all of those things as a consideration when you're when you're trying to figure out how much time to take away in is the component of being home with kids is isolating. A lot of the time in America, at least, there is not a fantastic community established from minute one. So if you happen to live away from family or if you happen to not have people in the same stage of life, it really sucks. Like I I didn't have those things when I had my kids. And if I had stayed home from that minute one, I I personally do not have the type of mental layout that is that does well to be alone that much, especially with a small parasite surviving on me. My beloved parasites are now five and seven. I love them so much. Yes. Of course, but you know, when they were infants, I felt very fulfilled because I could go to the infant care daycare and and like sit with the babies and get to know the daycare teachers. And my older girl Allison, she started daycare at seven weeks. Yeah. And and it was just one of those things that I was incredibly lucky. It was very close to my office. I could go breastfeed in the middle of the day. But then when Nat was born and it was COVID, like the all bets were off. We were all at home, and I'm we are lucky we survived because I hated it so much. And I was still trying to work, like I still had like

Caitlin [00:20:38] Who brought their baby to this workplace?

Kacie [00:20:41] God, worse than the baby was the 18-month-old. Like who brought their 18-month-old to this business office? Oh, yeah, but that's the second thing. Like you said earlier, infant care is extremely expensive. It gets slightly less expensive the older they get. And then once you are into preschool years, there are some options that are lower cost, possibly even free, depending on your city and your public school opportunities. And then once they're in kindergarten, it gets better again. So those are some financial considerations, but that doesn't take in the fact that there's people that really want to be home for those things. And I don't want to discredit that as a life choice. I think that's really powerful. However, I want them to make that choice because they want to be home, not because they think, oh, the $5,000 isn't worth it. That's where I hate Sara's point.

Caitlin [00:21:32] Yeah.

Kacie [00:21:32] Is so incredibly powerful. It's five thousand dollars. However, it's also your entire career trajectory up to and beyond that moment.

Caitlin [00:21:43] And mental health, as you're pointing out. Like it just because it would be five thousand dollars that you're earning from your job, which weirdly always gets attributed in my experience to the woman's income.

Caitlin [00:21:55] Not

Caitlin [00:21:56] The man, it's not like they take 5050 from both. They're like anyway, that like the cost of your mental health and your quality of life, like those are not negligible factors in putting that all together. And a lot of us had expectations, like, oh, I'm gonna I want ever I want to be there for every moment. I don't want anyone else involved. And maybe that was true for the first year and it changes, or maybe that wasn't true for the first year at all. You have no idea what your response is gonna be. And I think also what's interesting to me is exploring what's the in between the black and the white. So there's the stay at home full time because in in the cases that we're talking about, I don't want to work full time for $5,000 a year. And then there's the I'm gonna, I'm gonna work because Sara scared me about compounding. So I'm gonna like gut through. And I think there's some there's some middle options, but you might not get to them if you think of it as black and white. I have to do it this way or I have to do it that way. And I wonder, I want to talk about those, but I want to make sure that there's not something else people should ask themselves who are gonna completely get out of the workforce or considering that as a couple. I have a huge list. Oh.

Kacie [00:23:16] Oh geez, okay. Let's go. Yes. Next item. Okay. So when this is coming up and for for the kid reason, for the I hate my job reason, for physically I can't do this kind of work anymore, whatever it is, if there's one partner who's still working, that partner is going to feel a lot of pressure. And therefore I want to build a safety net under the whole family to to reduce some of the like worst case scenarios. So things that we can offer or things that they can seek out. Long term disability insurance. Yeah. So this is an insurance policy that is frequently offered at a corporate job as part of your benefits package. It's 60 to 70% of your salary. And you pay a small premium as part of your paychecks. And then if it happens, there is an elimination period where you don't get coverage for like up to 90 days. You can choose 180, but nobody does. But anyway, my point is, and then if you can't work anymore, it activates and it re it provides that income until you're 65 years old. So it gives you something. Yeah. God forbid that that that horrible eventuality might happen.

Caitlin [00:24:33] And for more info on that, listen to our special episode on insurance that we did with Kacie, where she talks a lot about long term disability insurance and others.

Kacie [00:24:43] It's the best. It's the best. I just had an opportunity today to research another university's alumni group who has an agreement with some insurance agency so that you can get group long-term disability through your alumni group. And I didn't even know that this particular group did it. So if you're a part of any kind of association or any kind of board, think if you don't have it through work. So, you know, realtors and lawyers and kind of people that are self-employed. Okay, second thing. If you own your property, if you own your primary residence, consider a home equity line of credit. Which have you guys talked about home equity lines of credit? Well, I forget. So that means

Caitlin [00:25:24] Listeners would need to remember Just pretend we haven't.

Kacie [00:25:28] I was really I was really scared you were gonna say yes, Kacie. Remember when we talked about it on the special episode of the case. No, my point. I don't retain a lot of the information we discussed. So let's a refresher's never harmful. Oh, thank goodness. Thank you so much. So the home equity line of credit is a a variable line of credit. It's j basically a giant credit card with a giant credit balance available to you, and it's backed by the value of your home. So if your home is worth, let's say $500,000 and your mortgage is a hundred thousand, then you take the five hundred thousand times eighty, which is four hundred thousand, minus the hundred thousand you owe. So now we're down to three hundred thousand. And then that three hundred thousand could potentially be unlocked as a credit card availability. Okay. The home equity line of credit. The great thing about it is that once you establish it, you don't make any payments. You don't owe anything unless you're using it.

Caitlin [00:26:28] Okay.

Kacie [00:26:28] And so it can sit in your back pocket like a a credit card that you're not using, right? But God forbid something bad happens instead of just having, you know, a twenty thousand dollar limit on your Chase card that's gonna cost you twenty five percent if you ever use it.

Caitlin [00:26:46] Yeah.

Kacie [00:26:46] Instead, you have this giant credit card that's gonna cost you seven to nine percent in today's interest rates if you ever use it. And you can take little chunks out. Like for example, when our plumbing I was gonna say crapped itself out and it did. When our plumbing failed, that's what we used. So we took out a twenty thousand dollar loan and then we paid it back. And the line of credit still exists and then you know, we weren't paying anything else after we paid that back. You don't have to take the whole thing. That's why I love it so much more than just a straight up construction loan or something where you have to know how much you want.

Caitlin [00:27:25] Yeah.

Kacie [00:27:25] Yeah.

Caitlin [00:27:26] So Kacie, what you're suggesting is if you are gonna make the decision that someone leaves the workforce and so therefore the whole family, the whole thing is relying on one person's income, that's a good time to take out a home equity line of credit, also known as a HELOC. Am I right about that? She correct. Learning a thing a year about finance over here and so that that's that is like the the safety net, one of the safety nets that you could have along with this long term in sh disability insurance. So these are the things that if you make that choice, eyes wide open, here's some the mechanisms that you could put into play to have a safety net because there isn't a second earner anymore. Okay, proceed. Next item.

Kacie [00:28:12] Yeah, so those are the those are are two examples of the ways that you can set yourself up against the worst case scenarios. The third thing that I want people to think about is if there is a stay at home person who is not earning income, set up a recurring transfer from the primary like checking account that gets the paychecks. Yeah. Set up a transfer from that checking account to the other person's checking account. So it's a paycheck replacement. Tell me more. So for example, if there is a stay at home parent, like at our house, there is a stay at home parent at our house, and it's not me. Uhhuh. Our stay at home parent receives a monthly transfer from the primary account so that they have money to spend. And it's not part of the household bills account. It's it's their own money. And if they choose to buy groceries and and baby shoes with it, great. If they choose to buy eight million different tools at Home Depot, great. It's none of my business. Hypothetically speaking.

Caitlin [00:29:22] Yeah, I mean.

Caitlin [00:29:23] Hypothetically speaking. How do you n what's that conversation like? Is it fifty fifty? Is this like this is a business partnership? So like after the bills are paid, we each are getting fifty fifty for the family income right now. What does that look like?

Kacie [00:29:39] Well, in our case, we actually frankly, we just couldn't afford that when we set it up. We couldn't go 50-50. So what we set up was what's an amount that makes the the stay-at-home parent feel empowered? And what's an amount that makes them feel like, I don't want to ask you for money. I don't want to take an allowance. Because it's it's a little bit demoralizing for some people and it's infantilizing for some people, especially perhaps if they are men.

Caitlin [00:30:06] Mm-hmm.

Kacie [00:30:07] I don't wanna generalize too much, but that has been my experience, that the that it's easier for women to to see the big picture and it's a little more important for men to feel independent.

Caitlin [00:30:19] But I can also imagine women being fine asking like with whatever the system and then later realizing like, ooh, this is a po this has enhanced a power dynamic from society that I'm like living out now in my own marriage, and then that can feel really uncomfortable. So even if they're okay with it in the beginning, that might change later. And, you know, because I can imagine in the beginning I'm like, I'll have the baby and you'll be at work and like we'll just work it out, you know, like of course, you know, we're this one big happy family. And then like three years in, they have no idea what I've been through at home those past. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean

Sara [00:31:00] I think that goes back to the changing seasons conversation, which I think that, you know, Caitlin, you start seeing this in the work that you do, but the starting a family season, I remember that as being I remember feeling so loved and so important because I was creating life and blah blah blah. Right. And so that season of life with newborns at that period of time is very different from what develops over the years, especially I think if there is an earnings disparity. And so there is this money equals power in many people's relationships. And the you can sometimes lose track of that, like maybe by nobody's fault, or it can be exploited.

Caitlin [00:31:52] Yeah.

Sara [00:31:53] But it's neither here nor there, right? Like as to well, it is neither here nor there. But Kacie's solution to this, right, which I think is brilliant, is let's not let that build up over time. Like no one should need to ask their partner for an allowance or for money, right? Healthy financial relationships are based on compromise, inequality, and communication and agreement. And as soon as you get farther along in an unequal relationship, like again, compounding, right? That power disparity can really grow over time. As does, you know, Kacie kind of mentioned also that the earning parent often feels a lot of pressure to provide. And you can just see how over years these discrepancies and disparities build over time and like add risk to the relationship that maybe wasn't there when you first came up with this plan.

Caitlin [00:32:55] Yes. And when things don't go well, either because of divorce or extreme sickness or w your partner's parents get extremely sick, like there's a financial shift and you don't have your own money that's in your account, you are even more dependent on a time where you're so much more vulnerable. And I see that a lot in with in divorce mediation and divorce coaching, where it all went great until now it's not. And now often the woman does not know where her next month's money is going to come from anymore, because it was all just on this like I left you five hundred dollars on the dresser, and they're like, He's not doing that anymore.

Sara [00:33:42] Yeah, Caitlin, I'd like to hear more about some of your experiences with your practice because Kacie and I are approaching this from a like, okay, we all get in the room and we plan this out and then we work the plan. Like what happens on the other end, like either with a plan that works and, you know, they really did something the right way, or a plan that doesn't work and ends in something, you know, traumatizing, like a divorce.

Caitlin [00:34:09] Well, I think I I it's like what you just said about money equals power really resonated for me and not just within the partnership, but also socially making friends. We when you want to go out to lunch with your friends, when you when your friends, if you are a stay at home parent or if you're not, you're gonna be in the mix now that you're a parent with other parents who do work or don't work, and you will be comparing yourself to where they are, and just like in some sort of social hierarchy, we all just do it. And I find that people that have you know, it was like a business decision for them to work anymore, then approach social situations feeling kind of like they don't have a voice, you know, don't have a as full of a voice because they're not the bread the breadwinners. And that what can happen then is they get further isolated, like Kacie was talking about. This isn't in every case, but I just think those vulnerabilities, if your complete financial standing depends on how good your marriage is, that can really change quickly. And your sense of stability, your sense of choices that you might have if you're not happy in your marriage at one point, are very different. If there hasn't been a discussion when things are good. About what's fair for us, what's a good process for us, so that when the shit hits the fan, you're not all of a sudden totally not only resentful for this other person, but really mad at yourself that like y you you're not protected in a way. Like if that happened to me, I'd be like, I'm not the kind of person this happens to. And if you have the opportunity to have those conversations to to set up these other safety nets, both for like the marriage and for yourself, while things are good, I really encourage people to do it because when things aren't good in the marriage or the relationship, it's a really hard time to renegotiate those terms or negotiate them for the first time.

Kacie [00:36:28] Yeah, I work a lot with people who are working their way through divorce or are freshly divorced and or freshly widowed. And so in all of those cases you're I do I see the same things that you're talking about very often where people blame themselves for not being more prepared.

Caitlin [00:36:46] Yeah.

Kacie [00:36:47] Or they say, how did this happen to me? And and and I hate that that's our human instinct, but it's just natural. Yeah. And so, you know, getting a good therapist is always a huge recommendation that I have. But while things are good, some of the things that I want to again from a practical standpoint remind folks is that if you have a situation where there is any excess income that can be diverted towards a retirement savings, remember that this the non-working parent still has access to an IRA, an individual retirement account. You can still contribute to that. Every US citizen can contribute. The question of whether it is or is not tax deductible or if it is or is not a Roth tax-free contribution, those are very individual based on your income. But just putting up to $7,000 a year into an IRA is available to everybody. And then it grows tax for deferred forever. And I feel like that's one of those things that I encourage folks to do for the non-working spouse, either as a tax advantage move or even just to grow the retirement pool, because that t non working spouse doesn't have access to a 401k. We don't have a a stay at home mom 401k. But we can if we if we kind of move some things around and and hopefully that helps.

Caitlin [00:38:17] Kacie, I have another one building on that. I have a radio show and yesterday interviewed a a family law attorney about post-nuptial agreements. And I'm just remembering that she said, I always recommend I'm like, what are the situations you would, you know, if you think things aren't going well, is that when you're like, I would like a postnuptial? And she said that, or if one person is gonna leave the workforce. That is a completely legitimate kind. Because of course, couples coming to either of you when they're happy and like, yes, this is how we want to play. But if you want it to really be set, you go to a family law attorney and say, we want to come up with a system that is fair given that I'm going to give up my income. We want to have an understanding here that if things don't go well, I'm protected in this way and I don't have to fight for spousal support. Like that's set up already. And I think that would give me a much bigger sense of security too. Like, this is a business decision. A marriage legally is like a business. And so

Kacie [00:39:24] Put it in writing. Yeah. And I think that that's another one of those red flags. If the if the working partner doesn't like that idea, that's a red flag. Especially if you are being very thoughtful about planning your family. If it's not like we're going to the attorney two weeks before babies do, that's a different situation. But if it's all like we want to make some some some decisions before we start the the family, I I really love that as a as a gift from the working spouse. Not a gift of money, but a gift of understanding that the non working spouse is taking on a huge job. Yes.

Caitlin [00:40:06] On a huge unpaid job. And even if that costs two to five thousand dollars to have a lawyer write a postnuptial agreement for you, that is much cheaper than lawyers' fees after when things are bad to try to get that same money and agreement. So that forward invest that like front end investment, hopefully you'll never need it. It will be just like something that's there to make you feel better. But Sara, what I know you were about to say something. I want to hear it.

Sara [00:40:36] Oh, I just I think that Caitlin, I think that's a brilliant idea. And it actually never occurred to me before. But I was thinking back to, you know, when I was a legal assistant at a family law firm, how many times did I hear the story, you know, when things were good, you know, he said or she said that they'd always take care of me. Yeah. Right. Like so common, right? Like the assumption was I'd always be taken care of, and now I feel like that now things are bad and that's not the case. Like that idea of doing a a post-nuptial agreement when one person is taking a huge financial risk.

Caitlin [00:41:16] Yeah.

Sara [00:41:17] By leaving the workforce is brilliant, right? And it's it's also a great thing to do, I think, when you're going through a planning process, like, you know, that the happy plan with Kacie Sara.

Caitlin [00:41:28] Yeah.

Sara [00:41:28] Because you're gathering all of the it financial information in one place, both partners get access to it. Now you have all of that and you can say, Okay, well, if we look forward to what might be possible, we're in agreement that no matter what happens, everyone will be cared for in the future, including the children, including the it the people bringing the children into the world. I just think that's such a brilliant idea.

Caitlin [00:41:54] I was really surprised too. I was making kind of a snide joke about them. And then she's like, Well, actually, I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. I'm going to tell everybody I know to do that. And they're not set in stone. Like for as long as that's the situation, but you can always adapt them when the situation changes. And that because then that the stay-at-home parent could go back to work and have a higher earning. You know, you then you can say, like, let's address this head-on, these power imbalances that are financial to make us more secure. Now we're getting jazz hands from Kacie.

Kacie [00:42:28] Okay, you guys, the what do they say, the famously visual podcast medium? You cannot see how excited I am about the phrase, it's not written in stone. Oh. This is the thing about money, guys. Remember, river not a pond. So people so frequently feel like a decision that they made when they had a two month old is the same decision you have to have at thirteen. And that's not the case. That is not the case. Everything can be adjusted. If you are I and this is where I wanted the conversation to go next, or what are the cues? What are the flags that it's time to go back to work? Yeah. Because those flags might be financial. That's where I could, you know, pull up the math answers and I'll tell you. But the the the heart answers are the ones where it's like, I don't like this anymore. Yeah.

Caitlin [00:43:21] Yeah. I'm insanely bored and I know my mind was like I I'm better at being myself when I have like a professional endeavor to throw into the mix. Yeah.

Kacie [00:43:34] I'm nicer to these kids, I'm nicer to my spouse, I have more impetus on the weekends to clean when I only have like one day instead of That never happened for me, but okay. Yeah, I hear okay. But it is one of those things. Like I force the children to help me on Saturdays because I'm like, listen, everybody, none of us are here and it's not daddy's job to keep this house clean. Everybody get your your dust rag out and you guys do the stuff on the bottom and I'll do the stuff on the top and let's knock this out. While we listen to K pop Demon Hunters again for the nine millionth time. Everything's gonna be golden. For those of you who are not K pop Demon Hunter fans, that is a lyric from the movie. I I haven't seen it yet. Caitlin, time out. Everybody pause, go watch it, come back. So good.

Caitlin [00:44:30] Oh, what an endorsement. Well, I'm aware of time, everybody's time, and I want us to get to the creative options in between, like you're completely out of the workforce or you're full or you're working full time. Sara's like holding something in her mouth that I think might be a really important comment. So this is this is the time.

Sara [00:44:51] I I think I have one, but I was just smashing my lips together because they're dry and I don't have my chapstick with me. But I mean, I think that one of the creative options that I don't know, like I that I hadn't really thought about until like I I met some people who had done this, is if you are out of the workforce for some period of time that you recognize the skills piece and in whatever activity you become involved in while the children are are growing up in whatever communities you're involved in, that you are really continuously focusing on keeping your skills sharp. And by that I I mean like networking skills, or picking up volunteer opportunities or organizing or leading, you know, working on your leadership skills, because it I I'm sure it gives like a wonderful break to the other types of skills that you have if you're parenting. But it those are also the skills that especially now is AI is coming in and taking a lot of the entry level skills that maybe in the past you could rely on everyone always needing, the leadership skills and the networking skills and the human skills I think are becoming more and more important. And so if you're not in the workforce, you can st still be developing networks and community and be volunteering for different committees and taking on leadership roles in the communities that you're able to be in if you if you're staying at home as a parent. And so I think that that is a creative in between from being totally out of maybe you're out of the workforce per se, but you're still focusing on the skills that will allow you to re-enter the workforce if and when you decide to do that.

Caitlin [00:46:51] And give you connections to people when you are ready to rejoin the workforce or you have to ready or not to have those phone numbers to call, warm bodies that you're like, Hey, so this is changed. Do you have any recommendations? Because if you don't have those numbers to call, that is hard. And I have more to say about that, but I wanted to Kacie's take.

Kacie [00:47:14] Yeah, I was gonna just add that the other thing that staying abreast of those types of skill sets. I think the other thing that it gives you is the confidence when you are ready to go back to work. I'm doing jazz hands now. Oh, that's really interesting version. So jazz. Thank you so much. For those of you who couldn't see, it was one-handed and it was a it was more like a robot move, but jazz claw. But yeah. Jazz claw. But my point was that you know, if you're already gonna be older than the fresh out of college entry kids anyway, lean in on that move and walk in with mom confidence and just be like, bitch, I've been com I've been organizing stuff for ten years. Just point point me at it. I know how to handle underlings. They are literally under me all the time. And and you got it, you know. Like just take it till you make it confidence, especially if you've had those opportunities to be in charge of the PTA, to be in charge of the Boy Scouts, to be in charge of whatever it is that you've been doing, all of your other volunteer efforts. You've been ushering at the Paramount, which is my favorite theater in town, by the way. Anything like this, there's lots of different things that people can be involved in that take little to a ton of time. And once again, the like Western focus on paid work being the only work is so false. Yeah. There's so much work out there.

Caitlin [00:48:46] The piece that I want to pick up that both of you put down is the confidence one. And I just notice, okay, so I'm a I'm freelance, but I'm a mediator. I do a bunch of different things. I now, because I'm in the thick of it, the working world and I get clients, I refer clients, I feel confident that I could find any industry expert or worker of this field of law or that email them and say, Hey, do you have 20 minutes to chat? I would love to hear more about your job. Or I have a client who is curious about this and I just wanted to blah blah blah. I have a reason to be in touch because I'm working and I'm in that thing. If I had been out of the workplace for 10 years, I think my intimidation factor, what do I have to offer? Like you get out of practice of doing that. You feel like I I don't even have anything to offer here, and that coming in cold after being away for so long because of your confidence is really hard. And it it's like this invisible barrier to restarting the workforce. So then you're just like doing applications like a pool of ten thousand other people and aren't able to differentiate yourself because you're like, I literally don't can't cold call a stranger and just be like, Will you have coffee with me to You get out of the habit of having those networking conversations. And even if the people would be receptive to you, you yourself are like, I don't have anything to offer, that would feel like that's too scary or like feels too imbalanced. So I have noticed that a lot for the people I've either worked with or known that the longer you're out of the workforce, the harder it is to do these soft touch networking, because it's essentially then if you're just need to network because you're like, I need a job, I need a job, I need a job. That's a much l like it's usually a much longer game. The other piece of it that I think is like to consider is definitely the volunteering, definitely the whatever. But in part of this bargain for I'm gonna stay at home, I'm also gonna take 10 hours every week to do something that is either taking a class or doing volunteer work, or I'm a bookkeeper. So I will keep one client. Yes. Something where you have a strategy around something where that you could work the hours that would work for you, a small thing, one shift at a a store because you knew the owner and you you thought that would be fun, just to keep your toe in to income generation, or as you say, like the networking or community connection piece is really like not that much, and I also think. Like mental health wise helps to know you will have that break from childcare for ten hours a week. Kacie's like containing herself, but I know that there's something underneath.

Kacie [00:51:50] I know and I hate to disagree with you, Caitlin, but I feel like that sounds so aspirational to me.

Caitlin [00:51:56] Okay. Okay.

Kacie [00:51:57] Like and that's just because I am a a a known people pleaser that does not want to make space for myself and I'm sure that there's I'm not the only one out there. And the idea of saying I'm going I've got these three little kids and partner, you need to be home early on Tuesdays and Thursdays because I need to go network or I want to work a shift that I don't have to work. I I would love for everyone to feel empowered to do that and I feel like I wouldn't

Caitlin [00:52:33] Wow, I'm even more honored that you pushed back on my opinion, given that you're a people pleaser. You just obviously don't want to please me.

Kacie [00:52:43] Clearly I feel so safe with you.

Caitlin [00:52:45] Yes. This is an honor. I love it when people push back. Okay. I take your point. And I think it makes me want to make that point even more that that could be part of the negotiation from the beginning is hey, you know, first six months, all bets are off. And then I'm gonna need things that are my own. And time is the closest symbol for that. And so it could be, it could be you have to come home early, or hey, just so you know, into the budget will be a babysitter for five hours on Tuesdays and three hours in the evening on Thursday. You should go out with your friends on Thursday night. Like just to build in, just because the person is at home with the kids doesn't mean that that is a hundred percent of their hours though. Just like in any job, you also get to do other things. Same with that job.

Kacie [00:53:37] Oh my god, I'm having personal epiphanies.

Sara [00:53:40] I know. Go Caitlin go. I l I love this point. I mean, one of the things that Christian and I used to talk about was that once you have kids, the work day is not nine to five. It's 6 a.m. Until 10 or 11 p.m. Right? So regardless of where you're spending those hours, there's there's work to be done. So the the working spouse, there should not and and this is what I want more than anything in the world, and I should not have the expectation that this is what happens. I leave at eight. I work so hard. I'm a workaho I'm a workaholic. I love it. I get home at six and then it's time for me to chill, right?

Caitlin [00:54:24] Except?

Sara [00:54:25] Except the workday doesn't end until the children are asleep, right? So that that's the same for Christian, right? His workday starts at six, his workday ends at eleven. So if we're taking all of those hours, they need to be split more equitably, right? Like there are there's work time and there's personal time. And if and however those are divided up is really, really important. The expectation should not be that one person is working from six to eleven doing all of the household chores that need to be done. Yeah. And that one person gets to, you know, work outside the home for nine or ten hours and then call it a day and be waited on by the rest of the the family, right? Like

Kacie [00:55:18] This is not a nineteen sixties sitcom. Absolutely not. No, no.

Sara [00:55:22] And but I think that like being like having that partnership where like, yes, people need to be out in the world, they need to have their own time, they need to have hobbies, they need to have friends, they need to have time to network, they need to have time to work outside of the home. All of those things have to be part of an ongoing conversation where you're either advocating for yourself or you are intentionally advocating for your partner so that they don't forget that about themselves as we're going through these seasons. It's so easy to forget.

Caitlin [00:55:58] Yes. Especially when money feels crunched. Kacie, tell me about your epiphanies.

Kacie [00:56:04] My epiphanies were that the feeling as though because my spouse stays home, that when I get off work I need to devote every minute to the family. That's really hard to overcome. For me at least, and maybe for other folks too.

Sara [00:56:23] Gash.

Kacie [00:56:23] I'm totally that.

Sara [00:56:23] Opposite. That's so funny. We all know about my weird feelings wheel thing though, so

Kacie [00:56:30] I love it. I love see one once again, reasons that we are a perfect jigsaw puzzle. Yeah. Love story. But but yeah, so it's hard for me on the weekends to say, I'm gonna leave these kids with you because I wanna go to the gym.

Caitlin [00:56:47] Yeah.

Kacie [00:56:48] I feel like it's my job to be with them because he, you know, when I get home at six, he's the one that picked them up from from aftercare at five. Yeah. And he's been with them an extra hour longer than I have, which is why it's so nice when we can do the things together. And then it's like to, you know, one parent plus one parent equals like two and a half parents.

Caitlin [00:57:08] Somehow.

Kacie [00:57:09] You know, I love that that I love that. But then on other times I'm like, no one talked to me. I want to sit in the car and l just play angry birds and ignore everyone.

Caitlin [00:57:21] And I yeah, and I think what both of you are pointing to is we were talking about the power imbalance because of earning the money and the dollars in whose account, but it's also a power imbalance of like who's entitled to ask for extra, like, okay, you're at this stressful job all day. Okay, so I'm not entitled to ask you to do child care when you come home because this is my job. We agreed I was gonna do this job, and that it can get very murky who's entitled to what. And every couple is gonna be different. It's just having the conversation about like, no, we both need to go to the gym, and I want to go on Tuesdays because that's a class I like, and you like going on Fridays because all your guys go on Fridays. Then our job is to make that work for both of us. Whether or not it's the 10 hours a week, it's an intentional carving out that's not gonna be a surprise or as needed. That's the piece that I think becomes really hard, especially for people pleasers, is like, well, I really want to do this, but I don't want to. If it's already expected, this is how I met Sara is I wanted to take a class. I had a newborn, and I decided I just need to get out of the house one evening a week. And I'm a full time solo parent. So I asked my neighbors who also had a newborn, would you mind taking two newborns? For just like a couple hours one evening a week. And they did. And so that I mean, to talk about I wasn't I was working because I worked at home, but to talk about how life changing one evening class could be when you have a newborn, it like all these years later, ten years later, we have a podcast together, like this is living proof of what can happen when you just decide to take one class when you have a newborn because you need to be out of the house. Like it is life affirming and enriching.

Kacie [00:59:17] That is so funny. Before that, even was the fact that you were brave enough and had either the need or the desire enough that you asked. Oh yeah. Right? The communication element is so huge. You ask the neighbor, who I'm sure was like, Of course, no problem. We already have one.

Caitlin [00:59:36] Yeah.

Kacie [00:59:36] You know, like the same with my neighbor who has no children, but when I say, Will you please sit with the kids? She's thrilled to come over. And I'm like, Great, I get to go to the grocery store without having to get the cool cart, which is the one that looks like a race car. So awful. They're so terrible. Year old does not fit in this thing and then cries because she can't get in it anymore. And I'm like, just stay home, just stay home. Life is hard.

Caitlin [01:00:12] Any final comments other than the grocery store things that are supposed to be like a novelty and attraction, but actually just make it take twice as long?

Kacie [01:00:21] Yeah, my big takeaways would be communication, absolutely. Keep eyes out for the signs of resentment and the signs of life is changing again. And don't hesitate to let it freaking change because life is also a river, not a pond. Do what you can to protect yourself in the beginning, but also don't like beat yourself up if you're spending money because you have small children. Like that is the whole point. That was part of the plan. And and know that again, it's not a forever season. Eventually they will go away, and then you can buy nice things again.

Sara [01:01:00] Sara, what's your takeaways? Yeah, my takeaway is like echoing the the seasons of change and knowing that that you can change along with them and change your mind. And I think also something it that always occurs to me is that your children are going to be okay regardless of what path you choose. Children need a village. There are people surrounding them who love them. If it's you are able to stay home with them and provide that environment, that's wonderful. If you find a village with daycare or au pair or school and other people are providing that village, that's wonderful. And all of these things can change and evolve over time. And don't don't give up your power when it comes to having agency to make those choices.

Caitlin [01:01:49] Don't give up your power. It's really good. Yeah. And I think like the thing that's still indelible in my head is the short-term math. Like don't be tricked by short term math because that math is really overwhelming. Like it's really stark and black and white. It can really make you feel like you don't have any choices. And even, you know, in the pr in the scenario we said if you only earn 42,000 but childcare costs 35,000. Well, let's switch it. Let's say childcare was the forty two thousand dollars and child care is thirty-five. You literally might not have enough, but maybe you know, j don't be tricked by what that looks like. It's a much bigger discussion and equation. And if you are gonna do it, really take into consideration the HELOC, the insurance, the continuing your contacts, continuing skill building, other classes, other volunteer opportunities, so that, you know, in 10 years you have options, no matter what has happened with your marriage or your desire to work, you have options. Options are always good. Yeah. Thank you guys so much. This was I feel like we did a pretty good job of holding everyone's experience. Like it's all valid and we get heated up when we see the same like injustice or patterns happen again and again where people were blindsided. And I feel like we can help people reconsider.

Sara [01:03:22] Oh, thank you, Caitlin. Thank you, Kacie. Do you have a question about investing or finance? Send it to us in an email or voice memo on our website, womenontheverge.com. Hey, we want our listeners.

Caitlin [01:03:37] Listeners to know that economic abuse can be subtle, but it's a serious form of control. Watch out for partners who limit your access to money, sabotage your job, or rack up debt in your name. If this sounds familiar, you're not alone and there's help available. Please learn more at the hotline dot org or call eight hundred seven nine nine.

Sara [01:04:00] Yeah. Safe. Our podcast is edited by our co-producer Kelly West with music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.

Caitlin [01:04:07] I know, the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in gold.

Sara [01:04:20] No. This podcast contains general information that is not suitable for everyone. The information contained herein should not be construed as personalized investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. There is no guarantee that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast will come to pass. Investing in the stock market involves gains and losses and may not be suitable for all investors. Information presented herein is subject to change without notice and should not be considered as a solicitation to buy or sell any security.