Season 4, Episode 2: Financial Trauma and Therapy with Dr. Shay
And Money Advice From People That Aren’t White Guys in Polo Shirts
Turns out money baggage isn’t suitcase jammed with hundred dollar bills - it’s the stuff we drag around from childhood that sneaks into every tap and Venmo request of our adult lives.
But don’t worry! Financial therapy, people. It’s a thing. And we have the wonderful Dr. Shaywanna Harris-Pierce on the pod to tell us all about it.
Maybe you avoid your credit card statements and just swipe and pray? (Dr. Shay said that and now it’s our motto.)
Maybe you’re living it up like yacht owner when your bank account is giving more…row boat with only one paddle?
Or maybe you’ve got plenty in savings but still won’t splurge on the guacamole add-on to your burrito?
If any of these apply to you, Dr. Shay is your person. She helps people sort through the feelings behind the finances. And how to work through those feelings to get in touch with your financial future.
Also, we talk about how most money advice seems written for rich white dudes named Chad, where to find guidance that speaks to a much wider range of experiences and backgrounds, especially for women and people of color. It’s really a lovely conversation and we think you’ll feel better after you listen.
Here’s where you can find Dr. Shay’s clinical practice, and here’s her podcast.
Other financial information resources and support Dr. Shay recommends:
Strangers in Paradise: How Families Adapt to Wealth Across Generations by James Grubman
Feel-Good Finance by Aja Evans
Wealth in the Key of Life: Finding Your Financial Harmony by Preston D. Cherry
And finally, find your own financial therapist!
Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions, or just say hi! on our Ask Us page!
We have the social medias!! Here’s our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn.
This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.
Transcripts for Season 4, Episode 2: Financial Trauma and Therapy with Dr. Shay
Caitlin [00:00:06] Hello, friends, and welcome to Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough, where we're figuring out finance one dumb question at a time. I'm the dummy, Caitlin Meredith, a coach and mediator based in the Bay Area.
Sara [00:00:21] And I'm Sara Glakas. I'm an investor, advisor, and founder of Blackburn Financial and the Austin Women's Investing Group, which can be found on Meetup and Facebook.
Caitlin [00:00:30] Do you think of a woman who could use a little money motivation and send her this episode? And please, if you can, leave us a review. They help more women find the show and make us feel like a million dollars. Pre-tax.
Sara [00:00:51] Today on our show. I'm so excited. We have Dr. Shay Harris Pierre here. She is a financial therapist based out of Arlington, Virginia. Yes, DC area. And the founder of shades of you, counseling and consulting. And I was originally connected with Dr. Shea, as part of a week without violence event that we did with the YWCA greater Austin addressing economic and financial trauma. And she was gracious enough to lead a two hour workshop with our group. And so excited that she's agreed to join us here today because the discussion is fascinating, like certainly like in financial services that the area of financial therapy is not it's emerging, it's not quite as well known as other types of therapy or other types of financial services. And it's absolutely fascinating and absolutely integral to what? What we are all working with when it comes to money and investing in finance. So welcome, Dr. Shea. I'm so excited that you're here.
Dr. Shay [00:01:56] Yes, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and thank you for having me.
Caitlin [00:02:01] Dr. Shea, can I ask how you got into this? Because it's occurring to me this is the first time we really talked about how our childhoods have informed the way we think about or avoid conversations about money. And I feel like we could have just done the whole first season on financial trauma. And so we're kind of getting started a little late on this as in our fourth season. So I'm curious, just your own path.
Dr. Shay [00:02:34] Yes, I kind of fell into it, which is interesting because the more financial therapists that I meet and get to know, the more I'm finding my story of just kind of stumbling into the field is very common in the financial therapy space. But personally, my background is in marriage and family therapy. And so, you know, when I was going into choosing a master's program, I was thinking to myself, hmm, how do people really get messed up? I knew I wanted to be in the health field. And I knew I wanted to help people with psychotherapy, but I was like, I wanna be most helpful. So how do people really get messed up? And then it just dawned on me, duh, our families, our families our relationships. And so I really developed a passion for working with couples and families and working from that systemic perspective. Then I went into my PhD program in counselor education and supervision. Where I spent a while as a professor on the tenure track, got tenured, all of that stuff. Then I realized that academia wasn't the best fit for me. I also had my private practice on the side because I really valued staying with my ear to the ground, doing the work while I was also teaching master's level students how to do the work. In my practice, I saw a lot of high achieving, I still see a lot of high-achieving women of color. And in that work, especially around the pandemic time where everything was upside down, there was a lot of stress and anxiety. And I noticed that a lot of my clients were experiencing a lot of financial stress or just like that anxiety around finances, even though a lot of my client weren't necessarily they weren't wanting or lacking financially, there was still a lot of stress that was coming up for them. And I started to notice that there was like this theme of, I have a lot or a decent amount of comfortable living right now, but I didn't before. And I've got so much anxiety around not going back to that place, or my spending is significantly impacted, either I'm overspending because I never had these things before, the ability to buy the things that I wanted. Or I'm underspending because again, I don't wanna go back to that lacking space. And so as I started to see these themes and all of that in my work with clients, I started do some more research on how to best serve my clients from a financial place. Like how can I, they don't teach you anything in a master's level or even PhD level mental health program about money, which is wild to me.
Caitlin [00:05:13] But also, I want to hear the rest of the story, but Sara is the one with the MBA. I know nothing about finance. Sorry to tell you at this point. You can't back out now. But they don't get I don't think in your MBA program, you had classes on the psychology of money, did you?
Sara [00:05:37] So the only thing that matters is the shareholder. The shareholder is the most important person, so.
Caitlin [00:05:43] So the therapists aren't getting the education and the money people aren't. So it's just left to us normal people to try to figure out how to negotiate all this.
Dr. Shay [00:05:53] Which is so wild and which is why the financial therapy field and that overlap is so important because all of our financial decisions are emotional ones and you know if we don't have an understanding of our emotional understanding or our emotional responses to our finances then we're going to just kind of haphazardly build our relationship with money and it'll show in maladaptive or unaffective, ineffective financial behaviors and then we end up going to a financial professional and they don't know the underlying trauma or fear or frustration, any of those things that is contributing to the financial behavior. So they're just trying to, you know, I mean, I don't want to be insensitive or, you know, weird, but they're fixing things from one end. It's where financial therapy or a team of professionals can address, kind of burn the candle at both ends and fix things from multiple perspectives. So we don't leave anything out or kind of leave any stone unturned.
Caitlin [00:07:02] Like a much more holistic vision of, okay, we're talking about money, but are we really talking about many right now? Right. What are we actually talking about? Or we're talking about fear, but Are we actually taking about money? Yeah. Um, and I'm just curious, because perhaps other therapists are listening, what kind of education were you able to, it sounds like you were sort of did some self study. And I'm curious, what was really helpful to you as a clinician? And delving into the financial aspect of people's psychological health.
Dr. Shay [00:07:36] Yes, so that's to pick back up on this story. I was doing some research, kind of Googling and finding books, the psychology of money and some of those types of things. And then I found the Financial Therapy Association and it was kind of like when the clouds part and it's the hallelujah chorus and it like, ah, these are my people. And so it was perfect. And so I got certified as a financial therapist. They have the there's an education process and books and references and resources through the FTA, as well as like getting involved in the organization overall, they have conferences and everything. So the learning was definitely there and it was kind of hard and fast. Like I got exposed to it and I can be a bit of a bookworm or a sponge. And so when I'm really excited about something. It's really easy for me to just take a deep dive. And I think that's what happened. I got certified and I haven't looked back. It's been a beautiful experience being able to serve my clients in this way and also being able to expand myself into this space. I think, as we were talking about how there's this kind of siloed effect between the mental health space and the business or finance space. A bit of the work that I'm doing now is working with financial professionals to help them to understand the overlap between finance. And behavior and people's emotional experiences, especially when it comes to couples and how they navigate financial decisions and financial planners, working with even individuals, having trouble with implementation of a financial plan because a lot of that is very emotional.
Sara [00:09:22] We need help like very badly. I just must say that we don't know as financial professionals, like very uncomfortable in this space. I mean, I think that I know I've mentioned to Caitlin before that when I'm in meetings with clients, maybe like 70% of my clients at some point or another have said, I know you're not a therapist, but and then and so I'm like, I'm not a therapist. I don't really know. I'm getting better and trying to educate myself on how to synthesize that information. But certainly I think the cross-training is going to be really important going forward, as more and more of the things that a financial advisor or a financial planner can do is going to be replaced by computers and AI. But we still can be humans advising humans, and we have got to get better faster, I think.
Dr. Shay [00:10:13] And that's the most important part of it, too. I mean, you know, any system or program can spit out a, what is it called, the Monte Carlo simulation? Oh, yeah.
Sara [00:10:25] Oh yeah, just do some Monte Carlo simulations, run some projections.
Dr. Shay [00:10:29] Yeah, anything can do that, but it takes a lot to build that relationship and to understand why someone wants to put money away or what's most important for them when they put their money away, or when they're spending or saving or whatever it is that they're doing, the understanding of what emotionally and relationally is going on is going to be the most important piece.
Caitlin [00:10:52] I want you both to know that I'm sitting on my hands so I don't ask about the Monte Carlo simulation.
Speaker 3 [00:10:58] That's not the point of this podcast. That's NOT the point!
Caitlin [00:11:01] But maybe we will do a subsequent episode on it because you both know what it is. I have no idea, but I'm just I want credit for just letting that slide. And I'm curious, Dr. Shay, can you lay out what you have seen or what you've learned about sort of the main sources of when you're going to do a presentation about financial trauma to educate either. Other therapists or financial planners or two podcasters that work in this space. What would you want us to know about the common sources or patterns that happen around this?
Dr. Shay [00:11:39] Yeah. So I think it's important to know how important or how common financial trauma can be. And a lot of the work that I do with my financial therapy clients is around identifying financial flashpoints. So those are the, you know, when you say, hey, tell me a money story. What are the things in your life that stand out most? Like, oh, when I was six years old, this thing happened and I never thought about money the same or When I was 15, I got my first job, or when I was 18, I go my first credit card, and heaven knows what happened after that. And so these financial flashpoints happen in our lives, and when they happen, they cause a significant impact on our relationship to money. And so helping my clients to see what those events are is very important. And then sometimes those financial flash points can be really maybe it can have a challenging impact on our relationship to money. For example, in my podcast, Shades of Wealth, I had a person come on and they were telling their money story. And one of their financial flashpoints was remembering that their parent, one of the parents bought them a four-wheeler and they we're having so much fun with this four-wheeler, but then they noticed while they were outside playing on it that their parents were inside arguing about it. And so that created this. Frozen image in their mind, but it also kind of sparked this idea that, oh, I don't know if I'm supposed to actually enjoy things with money because that causes strife, that causes contention. So that, you know, things that you wouldn't even think would be a significant financial event, but they stick with you.
Caitlin [00:13:23] Especially if you never name it or even know that it's operating. If you haven't really been asked that question, you could just know you have a bad feeling in your stomach when you get something nice and you don't even, you can't associate where that came from or why to even unpack it.
Dr. Shay [00:13:43] Yes. And that happens so much with couples too, because there's the relationship or there's the communication that's happening within the relationship about finances and decisions need to be made. But if I'm having a very strong reaction about spending X amount of dollars on a vacation and my partner's like, well, whatever, you know, we're going to just do it. But I can't quite articulate or access why it's such a big deal to me. I mean, hey, we got the money in the bank account. It's fine. Like we're not hurting or it's not a, there's nothing that's an active threat, but it feels like a threat for some reason. And that's something that definitely shows up in a lot of my clients' lives and in their stories where there's that underlying unknown feeling or sense of threat when it comes to spending or engaging with money. Based on their past experiences of not having money or of witnessing parents or caregivers or family members really stressed out about money. Financial trauma can create this dark cloud over their relationship to money so that if they have more money or if they wanna spend more money, just no matter what their relationship to money is, there's this negative cloud over it. And oftentimes we can't really pinpoint or place where that negative dark cloud is coming from.
Caitlin [00:15:12] One of the things that's come up in my life and that we've talked a lot about this in our podcast is how sort of transitioning to different phases of your of your financial status can be a real challenge. So you've referred to like coming from scarcity, coming from like a really low resource childhood or experience. And then actually having more resources, but not exactly knowing what your posture should be towards it, and sort of still acting like you don't have any. And I imagine it's the same, not the same issues, but also really difficult when you come from really well-resourced, and then you're making a transition, you have no idea how to plan or what your orientation towards having enough should be. How does that come up for your clients?
Dr. Shay [00:16:07] Yeah, no, it shows up a lot, and in so many different ways too, for my clients. There's an excellent book by James Grubman called Strangers in Paradise. And it talks about moving from, the book focuses mainly on moving from middle class to like upper middle class and upper class. But I really enjoy that in the book, he talks about it as if where he kind of uses the, the metaphor of like moving to a new place, almost immigrating to a country because the culture is different. You know, the way that you interact is different and so there are sometimes, you know, people who move from one socioeconomic status to the next will do so and they'll go and they're like, oh, okay, so I'm a quote unquote rich person now, so I have to act like a quote, unquote rich. Whatever that means, right? And oftentimes that means if we're coming from not being a quote unquote rich person, it means what we've seen on TV or the things that we've heard about quote unquote, rich people. And so that can be one avenue that people take is like, oh, I'm moving into this new space. So I have to show up in the way that I think that a person in this socioeconomic status is supposed to show and that also may come with completely cutting off or. Relinquishing anything that is reminding them of their former socioeconomic status. So I have to live in this new space or I have drive this kind of car, wear these kinds of clothes and I can't go back to where I used to, where I'm from or things like that because it's not for me anymore. That's not what a quote unquote rich person does. So there are those kinds of people. Then there are also people who may want to kind of stay in their current space, right? So they're like, oh, I don't wanna be a quote unquote rich person, those people are bad or selfish or whatever, you know, so I don't wanna be that. So I'm going to completely ignore the fact that I have whatever amount of money and I'm gonna keep living the way that I've always lived. And that can be a bit limiting as well. It can be, you know, especially when we think about like wealth transfer. So there are stories of people who have squirreled away plenty of money and you would never know, you know, the millionaire next door. You never know that they had whatever assets that they had, but then when it's their time to go and their children or their beneficiaries are now left with this huge amount of money. Can be a disservice to them because then they've never had the resources to be a good steward of that level of wealth. So there are the pros and cons of each of those, but there's also the piece where you can kind of integrate what you want to or how you want show up in your new socio-economic status. You can take what you like and leave the rest of what it means to be quote unquote, rich person. And also take what makes you you from where you came from and use those things to kind of mold your own identity in your new socioeconomic status. And so much of that is the work that I do with a lot of my clients. We do a lot work on identity and what it means to no longer be in the SES that they were and to be in a different place but to also build again, kind of what that looks like for them. And who they want to be and how they want to show up as a person who makes whatever amount or who has whatever amount of wealth.
Sara [00:20:00] Can I just jump in here, because I want to hear more about this. And Caitlin, you, too, with the work that you do with clients, but from both of you, I'm wondering if you have a sense, as a professional, the healthier or kinder ways to relate to money that you're hoping that clients can orient toward? Is there? Like do you come in with like an idea of what that might look like and where you hope those of us who aren't there yet can get to as they relate to money?
Caitlin [00:20:36] Would you like to answer, Caitlin? I want to think of, I want a copy your answer after you say it.
Sara [00:20:44] We're just gonna put it in Caitlin's voice using AI.
Caitlin [00:20:48] We'll edit this.
Dr. Shay [00:20:52] That works.
Caitlin [00:20:53] I just was on a toad. I have something I have something to say everybody. So you'll see you'll hear after but I really want to hear for you Dr. Say since you it usually it can come up for me kind of sideways and you come up confronting it directly. So I really want to hear your response.
Dr. Shay [00:21:10] As a clinician, my response to so many questions is, it depends, so.
Sara [00:21:16] Mine too! So that's okay, it's a financial advice.
Dr. Shay [00:21:20] Yes, so it depends. For the most part though, I think the way that it works is I get an understanding of what the client's current relationship to money looks like. Is it a relationship where it's distant and the client is like, I don't even, is there a level of avoidance or anxiety in the relationship? I don't even wanna look at my bank accounts. I just swipe and pray, or I'm just, it makes me too anxious to even think about it. Um, and in that case, of course it would be, you know, how do we build a better relationship, a relationship that feels less threatening to you where money feels more like a tool or money feels more, like something that you can have a level of ebb and flow or like a, a back and forth kind of relationship with, and it doesn't have to feel like a threat, um, or some people come in and they're like, money is everything I live, breathe, think, dream, money. And I have to work, work, work in order to get money because that's what's gonna make me happy. And that's, what makes the world go around. So there's almost like this, this worship that comes. And in those cases, we can kind of pull back a little bit to again, develop a more healthy relationship to money, to understand, you know, what are some other values that you have? What are some things that are more, are equally or additionally important in life? What do your other relationships look like? How can you, use or see your relationship to money as something that isn't necessarily a life-sustaining thing, but something that can be a supplement to the life that you want to live or kind of a contributor to that. So I guess like those are a couple of examples of how people show up with money, but overall the process looks like understanding what that relationship currently looks like and then how we can make some adjustments to make the relationship feel safer. More open, clear, direct communication between the person and money, and what that looks like moving forward for them.
Caitlin [00:23:27] Yeah, hearing you talking and Sara's question, so I'm a divorce coach and I also do divorce mediations and whether my clients are mostly women and either I'm working in these extremes have been the primary breadwinner or their spouse has been the primarily breadwinna for whatever reason the configuration of these families and so on the money represents so much stress. I literally don't think we can get divorce or even separated because there's no way my income can pay for two rents or my spouse's income can't pay for that. So there's such this force field around like, I am stuck forever in this situation because of money and I live in a high, what do we call that? High COL, cost of living, high cost of a living area in the Bay area in California. So. That can feel very real, like not something that's even like negotiable or anything. And so one of the things that shows up is like avoiding even usually if you're gonna go through a divorce or separation, you have to provide the financial information from both sides. So there can be and just avoiding that because it's all bad news. So one of things I just try to do is like turning the heat down so we can actually see what the information is which is something we talk about in this. Two, I can do that as someone who's not experiencing divorce, just like, I don't want to know this month. As a freelancer, I love what you said, swipe and pray. Just swipe and prey, it'll all work out. But what can exacerbate it so much is not even knowing the information that you're working with. And so that's what I keep trying to get people to, they're just numbers. Let's get to that point first and like call a friend, tell them you're about to do something really hard. For you and can they do a Zoom study hall with you? So you're working on it while your friend is there doing their own thing or some way to include someone else, maybe not in the actual numbers, but that it's not so lonely and you can confront it and in smaller chunks. But yeah, tell me.
Dr. Shay [00:25:40] No, I was just going to say that I really appreciate the phrase like turning down the heat because it can feel so overwhelming when we're even thinking about thinking about money. If we have that that anxiety around it, it's like we can almost work ourselves up and kind of work the numbers up into these big scary monsters when it may not be as bad as we're And, you know, of course, I'm guilty of this myself. You know, it's like... You get to a place and you're like, oh shoot, I didn't, maybe I blew the budget on something. And well, I think what I was listening to a podcast recently and they said, you get to your what the hell number. It's a phenomenon where you get to a certain point and you just like, what the Hell? I'm just going to keep spending or I'm going to just keep doing it doesn't matter. And so then when you get past that point, it's really hard to go back and like have to face what you've done in your, you know, hands up state.
Caitlin [00:26:48] One of the things we've also talked about how it's, I'm gonna say the word easier knowing it's not, but there's something more simple about just not having the resources. So the answer is always no. No, I cannot go out to eat. No, I cannot buy that piece of, and then when you start to have more of a cushion, it's so much harder because then you do, you have to pick and choose. And like the psychological burden of figuring out, am I the kind of person who buys a new winter coat every, is that normal? Well, is that a- And just as you figuring out for yourself, Sara is the receiving end of many of my questions. Like, am I the kind of person who just, do most people have three sets of sheets? How many sets of sheet is normal? Like, to such a low level of concern, but that can take up so much bandwidth.
Dr. Shay [00:27:39] Yeah, and I think that that's so, that's a big part of like the identity piece, right? The, like, I don't want to be the kind of person that has X, Y, and Z, has too many sheets or has too much coats or things like that. So it's really important, and a lot of the work that I do with my clients is around understanding what the identity piece of that is. What quote unquote kind of person are you trying to avoid becoming? And are you actually that kind of person or are you just existing in the way that you, that feels most comfortable to you? Is it just easier given your laundry schedule to have three sets of sheets? Is it, you know, do you need, are you living in a place where you need multiple winter coats or you need a different one every year because they, I don't know, they don't last or it's something, I dunno. But like, is it? Is it that you're becoming that kind of person or is it that are actually meeting your needs in a way that you maybe haven't been able to meet them before?
Sara [00:28:39] Oh, I mean, that that kind of brings up this, this question of how, how might one know that they should talk to a financial therapist? Like, what are some of the, I don't know, some of the signs or maybe some of things that you tell yourself or say to yourself that could indicate that I might need to look into this with a professional a little deeper.
Dr. Shay [00:29:03] I'm a little biased, I think everybody should.
Sara [00:29:06] I was about to say, can we put your calendar?
Dr. Shay [00:29:08] Calendar link in the show notes. Yeah, I'll send my calendar link, just book a session. But I think we tend to run into relationships with financial professionals when we don't think we're doing things right. This may be your experience, Sara. It's like people are like, I'm so worried that I'm not doing things, right? I need help planning. I need to, you know, do things right, but Buh. Interesting thing is with money and relationships and money and feelings is that it's so taboo that we don't even really have much of a guide. We don't really have, we only have our families of origin, our parents and maybe our grandparents and uncles and like our own families as templates or, you know, guides for what talking about money or maybe not talking about money looks like in day-to-day life. And those may or may not be effective or helpful templates for us. And so I think to answer your question, maybe if you're reflecting on your own relationship to money and you recognize, hmm, my parents did it this way, but I wanna do something different. I just don't know what to do. Or I have this type of relationship with money. I'm really afraid of it. Or and I don't know why I'm afraid of it or I just feel it makes me feel so small or incompetent and I don't really behave well with money then get into a relationship with a financial therapist and then you can un kind of unlock some of that underlying stuff that can help you in your financial in your relationships with other financial professionals and it won't allow those past experiences, those emotional and relational things to cloud or to get in the way to be a barrier between being able to build a solid relationship with a financial planner and implementing a financial plan that works for you without the guilt or the shame or the blame or the fear that can come on the emotional side.
Caitlin [00:31:25] I think this is so crucial because we, I mean, the whole reason for starting this podcast was to try to make the financial language more accessible to people like me, who feel like I should already know this stuff because I'm a grown up. And so it's like embarrassing to act like we had a episode on what is a stock, like all this stuff that you think when you're a certain age, like everybody knows this and so I'll just pretend I do. But that means I'm not actually planning my financial future because I don't even know what a 401k is or should be or whatever. And so I feel like we have there, we can talk about different sources of shame. One is being a grownup, not knowing about it and your family of origin and whatever resources are lack thereof or discussion or lack there of there was and also just the structural components that women and people of color are caring with them. We were intentionally excluded from this knowledge and systems for so long. And we're each individually trying to play catch up. And now we're at this weird era where it's like our personal responsibility and failing if we don't know yet and aren't good at it. It's a pretty like heavy intersection of all of these things. And it's not minor what it looks like then when we're in our 60s and 70s. Like the implications are really big for us not being included and feeling we can have a healthy relationship with even talking about money.
Dr. Shay [00:33:03] Yes, and that's an excellent point. And it also is a big fueling point for the work that I do in my intersecting identities as a black woman and the work I do specifically with other black women because we are excluded from the conversation. In my own personal finance journey, I got to that place where I was like, well, what exactly is a stock? Or like, what should I be doing with, I know if I have a little extra, I should put it away, but like. Where? How? What do I do? Do I invest it? So I started reading and in the personal finance literature that I was finding, it was pale, male, and stale. It was very...
Caitlin [00:33:50] That's just for PMS.
Dr. Shay [00:33:54] It was so like, I couldn't really connect. It was unrelatable. There were like stories about, oh, well, if like the examples in the books were, oh, if so-and-so got a $50,000 loan from his parents to buy a house, then X, Y, Z, blah, blah blah. And that's not my experience. I don't really know a whole lot of people. Who can just go to their parents and say, hey, can I have 50 grand to buy a house? And so it's very exclusive or exclusionary, like to read that and to try and educate myself and to feel like, oh, this really isn't for me. This isn't, for anyone who looks like me, it's not, there's no, you know, there is now. I mean, yes, now, but there's not much that I can find written by people that look like me. Tailored to people that look like me. And so it was really great to find some voices of color, some female voices of color in the space. And it also makes me really proud and really happy to be able to show up in this space for other women of color to provide a safe space because in that pale male staleness, you know, I've heard so many stories of friends and family members of mine. Have reached out to financial professionals, not Sara, who have been dismissive or just cold, and it's just invalidating. And also like, shamy. There's a lot of shame in the finance field. And so I think it's so important for spaces like this and people. Who are sensitive to the needs of marginalized people and the history of how people have been marginalized in the finance space to be able to show up safely and to learn and to grow without the shame, without the blame or the exclusive type of...
Sara [00:36:10] I mean, and that's it. It's by design, right? Like, there's a whole story about how you shouldn't talk about money, right? We talk about here all the time. We talked about an Austin's investing group all the time, like you shouldn, like, it's gauche. It's like, it's just not classy at all, right. But in fact, wealthy people talk about money all the time with each other, right, only when they see someone else doing it, do they shame them or? Try to keep people in their place, right? And that is, it's absolutely true. It's not, you know, just like, oh, like, I think that that's what's happening. It's like, it is what is happening.
Caitlin [00:36:54] Absolutely, and even still. Yeah, it reminds me, we interviewed someone about how to negotiate your salary or compensation and benefits. And I was saying that I never, ever wanted to bring up money with employers because I didn't want them to think I was that kind of person that would care how much money I was making, which sounds so ridiculous to say. But I know that's gendered, and I That comes from, like... A place where it's like, oh no, I'm gonna be one of the good ones. I'm going to be the one that kind of like accepts. And of course they thought about money all the time. Otherwise, why would I be getting the vibe that they wouldn't care if I got more money or not more money? Like it was definitely there, but the identity piece for me was thinking, I don't want to be that kind of person that would prioritize.
Dr. Shay [00:37:51] Money. Yeah it's so interesting how being money hungry or money focused is weaponized specifically against women because I mean we live in a capitalist capitalist society we have to buy things we have, to pay for our food and shelter and clothes and things that cost money And so we deserve to ask for money in exchange for our time and energy. And it's so interesting how the societal message is, well, you shouldn't ask for money in exchange for your time and energy. You should do it for the love of the game or for just because.
Sara [00:38:35] Or it'll happen when you when you deserve it, it will be bestowed on to you by the person who is recognized that you are deserving, right? Yeah.
Caitlin [00:38:46] And I couldn't even tell you where I got those messages. Like, you know, it's so ingrained.
Dr. Shay [00:38:50] They're deeply ingrained, yeah.
Caitlin [00:38:52] Yeah, and so I can't even blame a former employer. It's not like, well, the meeting when I first got hired, they said this, it was in me. They didn't have to say anything. And so that just making that visible for myself feels like the first step and then making other people talk about it in front of me. So it normalizes it as the second one.
Speaker 3 [00:39:13] Mm-hmm
Caitlin [00:39:15] Dr. Shea, I would love for you to share if you want to do it for the show notes, also we'll do it. But the voices of color that really opened up a doorway for you learn about financial concepts and stuff in a way that felt more open to people from different non-PMS backgrounds. Once.
Dr. Shay [00:39:38] Um, yeah, specifically, of course, the, the budget Nista, um, Tiffany Aliche, and then also Berna Annette, she is, um a financial educator, um and she wrote a book and that was really a big piece of my, like, I was so excited when her book was like on the way because I was just waiting for something to not be written by. Of another white person talking about how money shows up for other white people. But yes, definitely The Budgetnista, Berna's work. More recently, a financial therapist, a couple of financial therapists, colleagues of mine, released books. Asia Evans recently released Feel Good Finance is what it's called, her book. And then also there's Wealth in the of Life by Dr. Preston Cherry. Both excellent, excellent pieces of literature and like educational, but from a perspective that's genuinely caring and nurturing and soft and gentle and not, you know, if you don't have X amount saved by 25, then you're a failure. It's not that kind of messaging at all. It's very gentle. This is what these things are, this is how you define these things. And what I really appreciate about both Asia and Preston, Cherry's work is that, again, they're financial therapists, but Asia comes from the mental health counseling background. So she's got the emotional piece kind of really solidly grounded in her work. And then Dr. Cherry, he's a certified financial planner. As well as a certified financial therapist. And so he does a lot of retirement work so he can explain Monte Carlo simulations and. Okay. And a bunch of those other things that I don't even know. But he can explain, he explains it in a very, very gentle way. And he also comes from the school of thought of like life planning. So it's not just about numbers and a bank account, but what life do you want to live?
Caitlin [00:42:01] I love that we try to like talk to people like cover issues that are for each point in a woman's life, like, you know, just starting out first job, I want to do everything right. How do I start? Well, which of course, like like, do everything I didn't do, like I'm, you know, take all this knowledge and you will be a gazillionaire or mid level professionals, people that, you know, moms have. Smaller kids that were realizing like, Oh, I have to plan something now or reaching retirement age. And I'm, I just imagine, depending on how old someone when is when they come see you that you might often have a feeling like, oh, I wish we had talked earlier to save you some of the stress or to help you like take some of this burden off earlier. I think so many of us are carrying it for a really long time. It's almost we I don't even see it anymore.
Dr. Shay [00:42:57] Yes, I think the shame that comes with money or the money shame that we as women carry, it can be held onto for so long that it becomes integrated into our self image or like how we view ourselves. And I think that would probably be something that I've seen in clients who've come to me a bit later. I wish that my clients didn't have to hold that shame for so long, because it's the shame, not what they did with their money. It's the same that has been placed on them, not whatever financial decision or whatever, I don't know, job they took or didn't take. It's shame that's really causing the most damage and not the actual act itself. You know, it's not stuck there. We can keep going, but the shame sometimes, it keeps us stuck in some of our decisions. And that's, to me, that's the advice that I would give to anyone on their financial journey, is to first, especially women, to first relinquish the shame.
Sara [00:44:16] I mean, that kind of leads into a question that I had, like the, like, if you could. If you could map it out for a person, someone experiencing negative financial events or financial trauma or something where they're maybe, they're stuck in a bad place. Do you think the first call is to an advisor or a planner, or do you think that the first is to a therapist?
Dr. Shay [00:44:40] Well, it depends.
Caitlin [00:44:42] You walked right into that.
Dr. Shay [00:44:45] No, I think it's both, honestly, because the planner helps to move things forward and to make sure that you're doing what you need to do in order to get to the goals that you have. And then the financial therapist helps you to get all of the gunk out of the way that's keeping you from moving forward. So I guess maybe if I had to say one first, probably a financial therapist to clear the way? And to develop a level of clarity around what the goals are, so that when you get into a relationship with a financial professional, you already have a solid understanding of where you're going, you've let go of all the shame, you understand where these internalized messages around your relationship with money are coming from, and you've challenged some of those maladaptive beliefs that have come up, and you're ready to go. So it may be easier if you, get through that stuff with a financial therapist and then go into the work with a Financial Planner.
Sara [00:45:46] Yeah, I would agree. I think that there's a lot of people that call the financial planner first because of the money. And it's usually like a sudden wealth type of thing, like they've inherited or there's been a divorce or something. But you can tell they're not ready. And you can't tell that either the advice isn't landing or it's difficult to figure out what the advice should be if we're just talking about the money, right? Like.
Dr. Shay [00:46:16] Yeah, and a couple of things. I personally believe that every financial planner, every planning firm needs an in-house financial therapist just to maybe do some of the first steps, first contact with clients. That'd be pretty great. And then secondly, what was the other piece that I was gonna speak to? Oh, I lost it.
Caitlin [00:46:41] You can, it'll come back, maybe. And in the meantime, I wanted to say, someone like Sara, like the kind of financial advisor I hope everyone will get, it's not just about her giving her clients advice, it's also about the education piece and empowering them to make decisions about their own lives. And so I can imagine that when I'm at my most fragile or like last Tuesday when I called her, I'm like, here are the keys. You make all the decisions, you do it. And then I wanna walk away. But that's not actually me at my best self. She wants an ongoing relationship with someone who's like, huh, okay, you're giving me all this information and now I can make decisions. And if I'm not there and able to do that and really take advantage of a financial advisor who wants to have someone really really be deciding their own fate, the role of a Financial Therapist could really help bridge that gap.
Dr. Shay [00:47:42] Yes, absolutely. And that jogged my memory of what else I was going to say. Sara, you mentioned that people, when they come in to work with financial planners, it's often at like a liquidity event, or when there's been a windfall. And those are really, really emotional events sometimes. Maybe there's grief. There's maybe grief of a relationship in the case of a divorce, or there's maybe an overwhelming amount of happiness winning the lottery or something. I don't know. There's a huge wave of emotions that people are experiencing. And on top of that, they're trying to figure out the numbers and what to do and how to plan and how move forward. But if they aren't able to fully understand or navigate what's going on emotionally, then you can't fully access, even physiologically in the brain, you can fully access that prefrontal cortex. If the amygdala and the emotional piece is out of control and firing on all cylinders. So I guess that's another kind of case for financial therapy, either in-house with financial planning or at least as a first step.
Sara [00:48:52] I think that also like almost like the 180 of that is is not infrequently I'll have people come in who are clinging to the financial piece as the thing they can control when you whether it's grief or divorce or losing a job or like whatever the transition is like that's the piece that they're really like latching onto as and almost giving it an overly important part of their life in order to. I mean, maybe it's distract, or maybe it just like not deal with the actual thing that has happened, right, and not allowing themselves yet, or not being able to allow themselves yet the time to grieve, especially it's like, especially with grief, it's like, I lost my dad last month, I have to get my affairs in order. It's like you can like, maybe we can just put it very, very stable. And call back in a year, six months, right? Like it's not, this is probably not the time to be making these types of decisions. Like it, it's so new, right. And you have to go through all of these processes. So I think that's interesting to think about.
Dr. Shay [00:50:06] Yes, that's a really good point because people will use the things that feel most tangible to hold on to when everything else feels very chaotic. The intangibles are all over the place.
Caitlin [00:50:20] Spreadsheet can feel real soothing in those times. Dr. Shay, if one of our listeners wanted to obviously go see you first, but you're too busy, like in their area, whatever, did they just google like financial therapist? Is that like a thing now?
Dr. Shay [00:50:38] Yeah, you might be able to find some people by Googling. There's also the Financial Therapy Association. They have a directory of certified financial therapists who have completed the requirements to show a level of knowledge and experience necessary to conduct financial therapy. That would be a really great place to start. The Financial Therapies Association's website. I think it's, I don't think it is FTA. I'll have to send it to you.
Caitlin [00:51:05] And we'll put it in the show notes. If someone is interested in seeking financial therapy, and I'm just gonna go ahead and say it depends, but when they're thinking about like, is that a lifelong thing or are you like, oh, it's because I'm in therapy and I'd be like, okay, am I gonna have a financial therapist for the rest of my life too? Or is it something where people think of it more as a contained, depending on their issues and trauma? I like to...
Dr. Shay [00:51:36] I liken therapy to car maintenance. So you can go in and get your tune up, go in for a few months if there's something, if a check engine light is coming on or if there is something that's making a funny noise, if there something in your financial life that isn't right, you can do some work with a financial therapist. It does depend on how long that work will last based on what the concern is. But it doesn't have to be a lifelong thing. The work that I do as a financial therapist is more, it's heavy on the therapy. And so some of my clients range from three to six months to I've had clients for years. So yeah, it does kind of run.
Caitlin [00:52:28] So I could start out because I'm like, I'm having these, I have to make these financial decisions and I'm avoiding them or I'm so stressed about them, I can't sleep, so that's how I start. But because you are also underlying from the beginning a therapist, we might move beyond those topics. Yes. And they might pop their heads up, obviously, throughout time together. Okay, that's also helpful. To think about. Most of the people that will qualify as financial therapists, that's one of their areas of specialty, but they will probably have a broad base also.
Dr. Shay [00:53:03] Yes, and people who are certified financial therapists can either come from a mental health background or a financial background. So there may be some someone who is a financial planner, you know, is a certified financial planner but who is also a certified financial therapist. So you may be able to get two in one with that situation. Or and you know of course the certified financial planner may not be able continue in digging deeper into the therapy stuff. Me as a financial therapist, I wouldn't be able to create a financial plan with you.
Caitlin [00:53:37] I can see pros and cons of having it be the same person or not. I like to lie to Sara about how much I spend. And if she was my therapist, I would feel like I was. Just kidding. OK. This is so helpful.
Sara [00:53:55] Isn't it amazing? It's like such, I don't know, it's an area that I want to have more discussions around that I think would benefit nearly 100% of the population and nearly 100 percent of the people who end up becoming my clients. We all have money stuff, right? We just all have it. Every single person comes in with their money stuff and their money stories. Put it, being able to put context around it and get like perspective around it, I think is so valuable for nearly everybody. Yes.
Caitlin [00:54:32] Okay, and will you remind, I know we've used up all your time and more. Will you remind us all the name of your podcast so people can get more of Dr. Shea on demand?
Dr. Shay [00:54:43] Sure. My podcast is Shades of Wealth. Podcast is on wherever you get your podcasts. And in that podcast we talk about people will share their money stories and then I'll talk to a financial professional about some of the themes that show up in the money stories. And so there's the relatability of someone actually sharing their relationship to money and then the education of a financial professional showing or sharing some tips and tricks to how to navigate common concerns. So. Kind of a passion project.
Caitlin [00:55:15] So good. Thank you so much, Dr. Shay for coming on our show.
Dr. Shay [00:55:20] Thank you, thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun.
Caitlin [00:55:23] And we might have to have you come back. I feel like now that this is launched firmly in my head, the more we talk about, the more I'm like, oh, I'm gonna wanna talk about that with Dr. Shea. It's like free therapy for me.
Sara [00:55:37] I'm asking for a friend.
Dr. Shay [00:55:39] I'll invoice you later.
Caitlin [00:55:41] Yeah.
Sara [00:55:47] Do you have a question about investing or finance? Send it to us in an email or voice memo on our website, womenontheverge.com.
Caitlin [00:55:54] Friends, before we leave, we want to pause and say something important. Economic abuse is a form of control and it can sneak in quietly. Maybe it looks like not having access to money, losing jobs because of sabotage, or finding debt you didn't agree to. If this sounds familiar, please know you're not alone and there is help. Visit thehotline.org or call 800-799.
Sara [00:56:19] Our podcast is edited by our co-producer, Kelly West, with music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo. I know, the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in gold. This podcast contains general information that is not suitable for everyone. The information contained herein should not be construed as personalized investment advice. Pass performance is no guarantee of future results. There is no guarantees that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast will come to pass. Investing in the stock market involves gains and losses and may not be suitable for all investors. Information presented herein is subject to change without notice and should not be considered as a solicitation to buy or sell any security.