Season 4, Episode 3: How to Negotiate Salary and Benefits
And Other Ways to Channel Your Inner Mediocre White Man
Welcome to the career class you should’ve gotten in college. This week, Sara and Caitlin ask Susanne Aronowitz, career and executive coach, how to talk about compensation without sweating through our pantsuits.
How do we know what we’re worth? If they agree too fast to our ask did we go too low? If they say no, do we go back into our caves and never ask again?
What about writing a number down on a piece of paper? Is that ever the right move?
Susanne walks us through how to be our own She-Wolves of Wall Street, or at least learn how to approach these conversations with confidence and clarity. And helps us think outside the money box to bring all sorts of other things out on the negotiating table like benefits, flexibility, professional development and beyond.
If you’re currently fuming silently at your desk thinking “these bastards aren’t paying me enough,” but the idea of saying it out loud makes you want to crawl into the office supply closet, we’re here for you. Or, Susanne is here for you.
A little surprise here for the super avoidant is that a salary negotiation can actually be more of a collaborative “let’s make this work for both of us” conversation. Yes, please!
Also, here are a few resources Susanne recommends to do salary research:
o www.dice.com/salary-calculator
o www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/know-your-worth.htm
o Robert Half Legal Salary Guide
o http://www.salaryexpert.com/
o Top Salary Calculators Online
Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions, or just say hi! on our Ask Us page!
We have the social medias!! Here’s our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn.
This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.
Transcripts for Season 4, Episode 3: How to Negotiate Salary and Benefits
Caitlin [00:00:06] Welcome to women on the verge of a financial breakthrough where we're figuring out finance one dumb question at a time I'm Caitlin Meredith a mediator and coach based in the Bay Area
Sara [00:00:18] I'm Sara Glakas, investor advisor and founder of Black Barn Financial and the austin women's investing group which you can find on meetup
Caitlin [00:00:27] OMG we have over 46 episodes explaining everything from how to save for college to what the freak a roth ira is women on the verge.com check it out
Caitlin [00:00:47] Today we have Susanne Aronowitz who is our special guest to talk about something that comes up a lot in my stress nightmares which is how to talk about money with an employer or a potential employer when you're getting hired and Suzanne broadens that to not just the money talk but benefits and other things so Welcome Suzanne. Thank you. It's great to be here. Will you tell people exactly what your title is like what your role is in your real real world job when you're not on our podcast trying to pronounce words for me
Susanne [00:01:30] Yes so I am a career and executive coach I work primarily with attorneys and in the legal industry although I've done work in other industries as well and so I work with my clients to help them engage more fully in their professional lives so that could mean doing a job transition and helping them in that process or helping them in the job that they have maybe they want to elevate to a higher level of responsibility they want to tackle a challenge they want to improve their skills so I sort of operate in both of those areas both those domains prior and I'm self-employed and I so I have my own private practice and I also work as a consultant within a consulting firm that serves leading law firms well internationally prior to that I spent 20 years working at a law school in the bay area so I worked with folks then who were career launchers and helping them figure out what they wanted to do and how to access that and how To build into the career launch into the career and then I'd work with them with our alumni as they were making job changes along the way and so I sort of approach this from these different moments in someone's career I've helped people get started I've helped them make transitions I sometimes help folks as they're looking to wind down towards the end as well
Caitlin [00:02:57] a whole other area Sara have you had to ask a new job or an existing job for more money I mean now you're also we're all freelance here but in the old days
Sara [00:03:09] yeah I think in the old days I did back maybe before I knew that there was such a thing as a coach to work with I've been on my own for 10 years and I've been on the receiving end of requests for salary adjustments which has also been interesting but I think I you know Caitlin now that I think about it I've maybe had a handful of situations where I went and asked for a change in I had to like psych myself up for it but I feel like I remember it being very scary right and having really like no frame of reference as to whether what I was asking was reasonable what if they said no what was I going to do right so I remember it being just like fraught with peril so I'm hoping that having an expert in the room to I don't know maybe that help us work through some of those fears I think it's going to be really helpful.
Caitlin [00:04:08] That it's somehow like dirty that like accepting the job I should just be honored which by the way I usually was and the truth was I would have done it for free so I also had to like but that me bringing it up sort of made me a less desirable candidate and that maybe they would regret it or be like no she's not serious she's going after this thing that has nothing to do with the job. I didn't know how to frame it for myself terms of like hey this is the value this is a negotiation maybe it won't work maybe it won maybe it will work now and it will in a year it felt like everything was out on the table the stakes were so high that I couldn't have like a calm positive approach to it so I also wish that I had had a coach for all of those I mean I lost so much sleep of this idea and sorry Suzanne you will be able to speak eventually.
Sara [00:05:06] I share all of our we're just going to tell you about ourselves for 45 minutes.
Caitlin [00:05:11] Let me tell you more about my anxiety another thing about my anxiety was that I was caught often in a few jobs feeling like I wasn't compensated enough so I was really mad and felt exploited but then the only alternative was to feel even worse which was to start a conversation about something that was so scary and so there was no like peaceful place to rest in between those two either option felt bad so I think I'm especially interested in the way that the new generation or people slash women that are good at this and have a positive attitude towards it, how they negotiate that. So I'm so, now it's your turn. Tell us what we should have done.
Sara [00:05:58] Can you describe kind of your typical client or an example of a typical client, where they're starting from and how they find you and what they're hoping your experience will give them?
Suzanne [00:06:11] Sure, so I work with clients who find themselves in a job search. Most of them now are kind of mid-career. So folks who've maybe been practicing law for a few years or perhaps a bit later in their career. I have some clients now, they've worked for one employer for 20 or 30 years. Now they're suddenly on the job market and have to look for a new job. So that's a whole other set of issues in terms of. How do you present yourself and the value and all of that? So I'm working with these folks all the way through the search, beginning with what are they looking for, what's important to them. And I think that's important. It bears on the salary and compensation question because it's really important to understand what are you looking for? What is a good opportunity for you? We're also conditioned to just. Try to win the job. And then when a job is offered to us, yay, we got the job, let's just take it before they rescind it somehow. And so we tend to lose our critical thinking in that process. And so it's really important to be clear at the beginning what's important, not only what's viable, but also what's desirable. And to have some clear factor. So when the opportunity presents itself, you can assess. This may be good for someone. Is it good for me? Is it going to put me in at least a good position as I was in before? So maybe for someone where they've already been out of work and they may feel like they can't be quite as choosy. So let's say, let's break even. Let's at least start where you were. But if you're going to risk leaving a job, ideally you wanna do it for something better. So knowing what better means to you will be really helpful. In this whole process, because maybe you don't even wanna negotiate with this employer because you've realized this is not the opportunity for you. That also may give you some clues over what are the factors you wanna negotiate for, right? You may not negotiate over all the terms. You might wanna focus your energy and capital on the things that are most important or have the highest impact to you. And so knowing what those features are. Will help you make some strategic choices at the right time.
Caitlin [00:08:36] And that was such an eye opener when Suzanne came to speak at my class that I teach at a law school for new attorneys. And that really opened my mind because to be honest, I asked you there to be like, tell them how to get more money. And then you opened up to all these other features that they could talk about. So could you explain what those other features are aside from just the bare number of salary?
Suzanne [00:09:02] Right, so there's salary numbers and also understanding, is that it? Will I be stuck at the salary forever? Does this organization offer a pathway for advancement? Do they offer raises on some periodic schedule? What does that look like? How might I be eligible for those raises? Does this employer offer bonuses and what are the criteria for those bonuses? Is it based on my performance? Is it on the employer's performance? Like what's in my control? What's not? How frequently did they give them? Those sorts of things. You wanna look at the benefits package. What is being offered to you in terms of health insurance, life insurance, all of those resources that have a real financial component to them. Are they covering? To the extent that the employer might be paying for a premium. Is it just you? Is it for your family members? What does that look like? Maybe if you're currently paying out of pocket for those expenses and the employer will now cover them but maybe the salary isn't as great as you thought. Like some of those things might sort of take balance out where it might be to your benefit even if the salary isn't fantastic as you're hoping it would be. If you're in. If you're getting retirement plan contributions, like is it, does the employer simply make a retirement plan available or does the employee pay into that plan? Cause that's money. I mean, that's real value if they're contributing a percentage into your retirement plan. That has a real financial benefit to you on top of simply having a program available to you. If you are in an industry where you have professional dues. Or there's professional development opportunities, conferences, trainings, things like that that you would otherwise have to pay out of pocket. Does your employer pay for those things? That too might have real value to you. Are there other pre-tax benefits? Child care, like a child care savings program or reimbursements or travel reimbursements. All of these different benefits that employers offer that are not factored into the salary. These are all things that are. Coming in on top of that. And so you wanna understand what all those financial pieces are to see, wow, this might actually add up to more than I realized when I see what the financial impact of some of those benefits is. There are also non-financial benefits that an employer might offer, right? Maybe flexibility in hours. Is this a job that allows you to work remotely if that's what you want, or a hybrid? Role if that's what you want. For some folks, commutes can be very expensive, whether it's gas, public transit, parking, wear and tear on your vehicle, the time spent commuting. Some people love to be physically present with their colleagues and others would prefer not to. Is that something that you might be able to negotiate with your employer so that your situation is suitable for your needs and how you operate best? But that isn't necessarily a financial decision from the employer's perspective. So that might be something that you can negotiate over. Start date or the hours that you work. So maybe you prefer to be on an early schedule or a late schedule. Does your employer allow you to shift your time? That's something that doesn't have a financial cost to the employer, but it might have a real value to you to align your work hours to the hours that suit you best. So really, I mean, they're. Many more, each person's circumstances are different, but factoring in all of those elements can help you assess whether this particular opportunity is a good opportunity. I mean, I save a lot of money now. Back when I was in San Francisco, I paid monthly for parking. I would buy myself a latte every morning on the way into the office. I would pay, buy myself lunch in the middle of the day. I had higher dry cleaning bills. Now I work from home. I don't have any of those expenses. So, you know, those are things that are kind of invisible to the employee, but they add up.
Caitlin [00:13:32] Do you think of all of those elements as negotiable when people are given offers? Or is, I imagine the first step is just getting information. Hey, is there somebody that could tell me about all of these areas, the benefits, someone in HR that can lay that all out? And then you decide which have value, which you would like to negotiate if possible. Like, do you say go for it, or is that a case by case basis?
Suzanne [00:14:01] It depends. You're gonna hear a lot of, it depends. So some of that information is publicly available. If you're interviewing at a fairly well resourced company or organization, they will often have an HR, you know, or careers page on their website where they have information right there in terms of some of the kind of benefits that they offer, you know. Healthcare and the, you now, all of these things. So you might not need to ask because it may be available. Right there. Some of these things are negotiable, some are not, right? I mean, they're not gonna go find a different healthcare provider for you, right. Like, this is what we offer, take it or leave it. This is how our 401k program is structured, take it, or leave, right, some of those things are not negotiable. But some of the things might be, you know, the hours or, you now, some of things around the conditions of the work as opposed to the financial piece. So part of that is understanding what the employer, where they do have some flexibility, where they might be able to accommodate you and where they don't. I think one of the areas that we should talk about is the salary because that is the place where most people, when they think about a negotiation over compensation, that's what they're thinking about is salary. What we've been talking about are the ways I encourage people to stretch their imagination. When they are approaching a negotiation because it's not only about salary, there's so many more factors that influence value. But often it's the salary that, you know, when we're talking about the financial pieces where there is some room for growth or flexibility or discussion. And some employers and probably many employers will expect that there will be a conversation around salary when they make a job offer. They're not going to be surprised if a high value candidate wants to engage in a conversation around that.
Sara [00:16:07] For your clients or maybe just kind of industries in general, what are the expectations around how transparent or opaque employers are around salaries?
Suzanne [00:16:22] It's all over the place. So first I'll say there's certain states now where employers have to be very transparent around salaries and so they are now required to put the salary range on the job posting, which is.
Caitlin [00:16:39] In California, that's true. California.
Suzanne [00:16:40] California is one of them. I think Massachusetts, there are other states that do this now. And so that is extremely helpful. Earlier mentioned a frame of reference and that is one element to give you a frame of reference, like what is the ballpark we are talking about here? So that's very helpful to know, like so that you don't low ball yourself. You don't want to suggest a salary that's below the minimum of the stated range. But it may also mean you don't want to come in right out of the gate asking for something way above the top of the range too, that you might, you know, the employer is gonna say, look, we told you what the range is. We weren't kidding, that's what it is. So let's see if we can find something in that range. So I do work with folks who are in organizations that have kind of a published lockstep salary schedule. So a lot of very large law firms. Operate that way, at least while attorneys are what we call associate attorneys and not partners. It's pretty, you know, first year attorneys make X, second year attorneys, make Y, it's pretty lockstep. There's not a lot of negotiation there. Government jobs, same thing, where there is a published salary scale based on years of experience. And so you can look at that or you see what the job is classified as. And you will see what the salary is. And there's not going to be a whole lot of negotiation about that, it's already locked in. And then I work with folks who are going to smaller places or other kinds of businesses where it could be anything.
Caitlin [00:18:19] One of the things you talked about that it would never occur to me to ask about is like, what is this system for raises or bonuses? And so it occurs to me that if you're comparing two jobs and one has the higher initial salary, but it's fixed, that might not be as appealing as one with a lower starting salary, but that has like regular raise opportunities or bonuses. That seems like basic math. I'm always in the mindset, like take the money and run. You know, we are always talking about on the podcast, like building your financial future. So what are the things to keep in mind? Not just for today, but for your retirement. It occurs to me the long-term with that would be more important than what happens today, if it's a livable arrangement for you in the short term.
Suzanne [00:19:10] Yes, well, possibly. I mean, I'm always careful to say one thing is more important than another because each of my clients has their own set of circumstances, right? So the attorney or the job seeker who's already been out of work, the bills are mounting, they may need to take present day money because they need it. And that is the right choice for them. So each situation has to be looked at within the context of the person and where they are. But the best case scenario, I do think it's helpful to take that longer range view to look not only at does this job position me for better financial success within the contours of this role. If I were to stay here and meet expectations and do everything I'm supposed to do, is there already a system designed to? Increase my compensation over time and what does that look like and how do I meet those requirements? So that, yes, that would be helpful. Whereas if the other role, I mean, I've worked with plenty of folks who are like, they haven't had a raise in X number of years. And it's an organization where maybe the folks running it don't feel very compelled to offer raises to their people. So, you know, so that's something you'd wanna know like how frequently do these raises happen or what does that evaluation process look like? Are performance evaluations tied to raises? Are they separate? Some places link them, some don't. So you wanna understand what the mindset or the culture is at that place. But I also think it's helpful to think about how will you advance in your career in this job? So does this job position you to build new skills, to have higher levels of responsibility, to maybe the jobs you want or that are really high paying? Expect you to have had some supervisory experience and you've never had that before. So maybe this job you're taking gives you that so that the next time you look for a job, you're now looking at a much higher salary range because you have these new skills, these new areas of responsibilities that you can market for the role after this one or for a promotion at the role you're at. So I always like to look at the whole. There are lots of ways an employer can convey value.
Caitlin [00:21:40] The dreaded question that I feel like comes up all the time is what do I say when they ask what are you currently earning? And what do say when how much do you want to earn? Do I be honest? Do I just say like, $1 million? And this gets back to Sara's question about I have no framework, but also even if you do, should they be able to ask you about how much you're currently earning. You're nodding your head no. No, they should not. They should.
Suzanne [00:22:12] And I know in several states, employers are prohibited from asking that question in the interview or on the application for a variety of reasons, but one is that if you were already underpaid and your next employer is going to base their compensation for you on your old underpaid job, it's just locking you into this, right? And that disproportionately affects.
Caitlin [00:22:39] Women and people of color.
Suzanne [00:22:40] Yes, so I know in some states they're not allowed to ask. And in any event, even if you are in a state where it's a permissible question, I would strongly encourage you to avoid answering that question. And just what's the range for this role? Or I'm making a transition, the industry I'm coming from is organized quite differently from this position. So I don't think those are apples to apples, those are really apples to oranges. Or. That was a lower level position. This one that I'm applying for with you is a supervisory role, has higher responsibility. Again, not apples to apples. It's negotiable or I'm expecting the market rate for a position like this, or I saw the range that you posted in the listing, I'm very comfortable with that range. Like there are ways you can either punt or kick that can or just try to move past that, but I would. Really, really, really really try to avoid sharing your current salary or even like locking it at an early stage, what that range is that you're looking for. I know it's tricky. And those of us who are people-pleasers want to respond to the question and give an answer, but it's not helping you to succumb to that discomfort in that moment to that question. It's not in your best interest. To give them information they're not entitled to and that might hold you back.
Sara [00:24:11] I mean, that was a really smart question, Caitlin, and a really answer, Suzanne, because I hadn't really thought about that until I started thinking about how in like parenting books, like how to respond to difficult questions that your eight-year-old asks. I'd be like, how much do you think I make? What do you my current salary range in the job interview? That's probably not how you would want to prepare, but that was the first thing that popped into my mind. So. Having, being ready for those difficult questions that get pushed back to you when you're in the middle of the negotiation process is, I mean, the whole point of this podcast episode, right? Like to try to think about those in advance and know what's permissible, also know that you might get asked them anyway, and that you need to be ready for that.
Caitlin [00:25:00] Well, and are you constantly saying to your clients, just think what a mediocre white man would ask for, because they seem to power through these conversations and be like, I want the maximum, no problem, and then they get it. Who wouldn't want the, right.
Suzanne [00:25:20] Yeah, no, that's right. And something you said earlier too, like sparked that for me. And when we think about confident people coming into these interviews, we assume that they're asking for the top of the range. Now, whether they've earned that confidence or not is something separate. But having a clear expectation of your worth conveys confidence. And that is actually very appealing to an employer. They want to hire people who are competent and confident, right? That's, who wants somebody who is not good at what they do, doesn't believe in themselves, right. That doesn't help the employer, right, they want those people who really have that presence. And so to have, and we can talk about strategies for doing this, but having that sense of this is what I'm worth. This is a fair number. Like my own coach talks about equal exchange of value, right, I perform this kind of work, it's value, this is the value I bring. And your compensation of me reflects that, like an equal exchange a value, right.
Caitlin [00:26:37] I love that.
Sara [00:26:38] Yeah, that's a great way to frame it. Like I am bringing this to the table, you are bringing money to the cable and that's the agreement that we're coming to.
Suzanne [00:26:50] And ideally, we're at the same point, right, that there's, because we don't want that resentment you talked about earlier, Keelan, that doesn't help anyone. Because if you're an employee who feels resentment on a daily basis towards your employer, your productivity is gonna go down, your attitude is going to go down. You're gonna create a toxic environment around you. You're not performing at your best. Doesn't help the employer, right. And so. The employer wants you to feel appropriately compensated. Like it helps everyone if that's calibrated accurately.
Caitlin [00:27:32] And I just, I was thinking through that situation where I lost sleep, I had a stomach ache for weeks because I knew I had to do it. And then I finally did it. And I made a higher offer. He responded, I can't do that. But what, you know, essentially met in the middle and then it was done. And then, I so mad at myself that I hadn't done it a year before. Like that, that I can turn many opportunities, experiences into opportunities for self-loathing. But I was thinking like, I put this off for so long. And so then the anger went from this guy who I had never even asked for a raise from. Like I didn't even give him a chance to say like, yeah, you're doing great. It wasn't on him to ask for it necessarily. But when I did, he responded, he didn't shame me. He didn't do anything, he negotiated. And then it was done. And I thought I could have been making that this whole past year. Fail better next time.
Suzanne [00:28:33] Yeah, no, that's right. If we don't add, there's no reason for them to unilaterally just come to you and say, you know what, you just deserve more. Here you go. I mean, some employers do, right? They're out there, but we can't expect that to happen. They've got a lot of other things that they are focused on and they're not necessarily focused on high individual employee. Do you feel like you're being well compensated? Also, some hiring managers may not know or they maybe remember what you were hired at, but they're not paying attention to that.
Caitlin [00:29:07] Yeah.
Suzanne [00:29:08] And so they're going to expect, if something isn't working for you, it's your responsibility to do something about it or to say something. Because if you don't say something, the employer has no reason to know, it's no longer working for them.
Caitlin [00:29:24] Right, you don't even give them the chance. Right. It reminds me of every non-profit job I've ever had where the first thing they say in government as well, we can't pay you what you're worth. That's how the conversation starts. And so you know even less what to negotiate. They're saying, we know this is low and then they'll be like, but we do have a good retirement. They'll really feature. There are other benefits that come along. It's not just the salary. And to your point before, knowing the context, if you are applying at a non-profit, you know that those salary ranges are not going to be the same as the corporate world. And yet there's still benefits there. So you can still put together a portrait of what would this actually mean for me and make decisions from there.
Suzanne [00:30:18] And maybe the real value is you do work that is so aligned with your personal values and your talents and you're committed to the same mission. And like you're doing work that is purposeful and meaningful to you and energizing that gets you out of bed in the morning. That's worth something. And as long as you can pay your bills, great. But yeah, it's a real fallacy to think that my salary is my worth because it's not like. You're smart, talented, highly skilled. Those things are true regardless of where you're employed or what you're paid. And what you are being paid is really more about the financial model of the employer.
Caitlin [00:31:02] Okay, I have a couple more. Sara, do you wanna jump in here? You're riding along with my band, okay. I'm not sure this comes up in your conversations but I am always curious about talking to colleagues about their salaries. And I always think about like the laws that prohibited people from doing that often meant that women didn't even know that they were being significantly underpaid compared to their male colleagues. And I'm curious. If that's something you explore with people that have current jobs when they're sort of thinking like, how do I negotiate more for more?
Suzanne [00:31:40] Yes, so information is your friend. So certainly it is very dicey to go to a colleague. I mean, we just don't have a culture here about having conversations about money which is the premise of your whole podcast, right? I mean like this is, right, we don't this culture. I think you need to, if you're already at a job and you're trying to gage, am I being compensated fairly? And, you know, am I at the same level of? As my peers, I think that is tricky and you need to have some pretty strong pre-existing relationships there. And so there are some places where it feels very safe and people share that information and there's a culture to support it. And there are places where there isn't. But that's not the only source of information available to you. I mean, so if you have that, great, that's super helpful. But for folks who are looking to enter, an organization where they may not have those relationships yet, or even if they're there and they don't feel comfortable asking peers directly, I do think it's important to do your research. So there's all kinds of, you know, there are resources out there that will, you now, salary, there are all kinds of websites, salary.com, or Glassdoor, or any other, I'm not endorsing one over the other, but there are kinds of resources you can do your research to sense, okay, for this kind of. For this job title, in this market, in this type of employer, this industry, what are the ranges? And I would look at a variety of those resources to sort of kind of see where, if you only pick one, there's a good chance it's just not, it can be out of line. It can be a real outlier. But if you're looking at several different, and you can kind of benchmark it to see, okay, based on these various resources, this seems like the range. That might give you a little bit of that frame of reference you talked about earlier. I also think for job seekers, I'm a big proponent of being in conversation with people all the way through the job search. And always push people to do informational interviews, to learn about different jobs, and employers, and cultures, and roles, and all, and so you can ask questions. I would not encourage someone to say, how much do you make? But you might, on an informational interview, or an informational conversation, say, what is the range you typically see for a role like this? Or what is it the range within your organization for a roll like this. And you'll get some feedback, but I wouldn't put someone on the spot to say, please share your financial position with me. But you can ask kind of what's the typical range that seems to be more comfortable for folks. And if they don't know, then you might say, what are some resources you recommend I look at? Are you aware of any benchmarking data? Are you aware of any data for organizations like this, or roles like this? I also think paying attention to job postings. So if you're in one of those states where they post the salary range on jobs, save all those job post things and see, and you might be able to calculate, like, gee, I've looked at 10 different job post-ings for this job title in this industry. They all seem to be in this range, right? You might. See, you know, start collecting your own data. If you live in a state where that is not the case, and so those ranges are not on the job postings in your area, you might think about similar regions of the country that might be kind of similar size cities or communities that maybe you can make some analogies to and say, okay, well, my locale seems similar financially to this other locale where the postings. Are required to put salary ranges. So let me take a look at that just to get that benchmark. But I do think getting information ahead of time is important. One of the things I always encourage my clients to do is early in the interview process if they're interviewing for a job, and especially if it's a place that publishes that salary range, they might ask the hiring manager or the HR person, you know, I noticed. There's this range of, you know, A to B for this role. Can you give me a sense of the factors that influence where a candidate will land within that range? And I would sort of make it as neutral as possible. So it's not like, tell me where I am in that range, but just how do you determine, you know when you're hiring someone, like how do determine where they land and pay attention to those factors. And then throughout your interview process, try to. Share evidence that you meet those factors. So if they say, well, we saved the high end of the range for people who have supervised at least three people for five years, or we saved that for people who have this particular credential or skill or accomplishment, then make sure during the interviews that you let them know you have those qualities and you meet that criteria. So later when you have that conversation. You've already documented that you meet their criteria. It kind of puts them in a corner because then they can't say, well, you don't meet our criteria when you've already demonstrated that you do. And they know that because they took into account when they decided to hire you. So I think it makes it easier later if you have that conversation at the front end, but keep it light at the beginning. Just asking for a friend.
Speaker 1 [00:37:25] Yeah, we're just jamming. Let me.
Suzanne [00:37:26] I'm curious about your process here. Yes, feel for it. I do wanna circle back to the salary negotiations with an employer. These are not, like, you're not at odds with the employer, right? This is the beginning of a relationship where they wanna hire you and you ideally wanna go there. And so I always encourage folks to take more of a collaborative problem-solving approach to these conversations and maybe to talk about them as. Conversations and not negotiations, which creates this idea of opposition. But ideally, we're gonna come up with something that works well for all of us or we're all gonna feel really good about and that this is gonna position us so that this really productive to have me join this organization. And so I think to approach it from that perspective, they wanna hire you, they wanna make it work. They have an empty desk and they need someone to sit there because the work is piling up. And so they have a vested interest. In bringing you on board. And so don't be afraid to have that conversation about here are the things that I would need to make this sustainable and I'm happy to commit to your organization under these conditions. That sounds like an ultimatum. I don't mean it like that, but that's where they're looking. But don't afraid, this is not the end, right? This is not scorched earth. This is, let's see what we can do to make this work and then to a point you made earlier, if they say, well, we. We'd love to have you. I wish I could give you that salary. We don't have the budget for it. I don't the authority for it, this is as high as I can go. And then you can ask questions about, well, what about the future? What does advancement look like? Is there a path? And understand what that path looks like so that maybe next year at your performance evaluation, you're able to then get the higher rate you've proven your value or you've unlocked the next. Level in the video game of your job to get to that higher earning power, but to take that long view too. It's not just what do I get today? It's how do I position for that in the future?
Caitlin [00:39:42] Yeah, and that it's not a one and done. I think I remember that from the class. Like I, every salary negotiation I've had has been so stressful that I'm like, I'll never have to do that again.
Speaker 1 [00:39:53] Right.
Caitlin [00:39:54] Wait, no, this is an ongoing conversation. So then like a year later, two years later, can you start that? Can you be the person who's had the job for two years, Suzanne, and start a conversation with their supervisor about I'd like a, like, essentially I wanna raise, but in the, like from the place in your heart that is means it's a collaboration, how you would start that conversation, make that ask.
Suzanne [00:40:22] Boy, I think again, it's part of a longer conversation. It's not a one sentence, it not one question. So it often is tied to the performance review, but not always. Maybe it's, hey, I've noticed that my responsibilities have shifted over the past year and I've taken on more and more things, right? Like there's often that drift at work where someone volunteers for the projects or because they are trusted, they get projects stumped on them or. Oh, hey, can you supervise this person or mentor that person or like, they've accumulated more responsibilities or they've delivered results for that organization. Maybe they generated more revenue than was anticipated or whatever the revenue equivalent for that job is, right? They've created results that exceeded expectations. And so I think. Documenting that and keeping track throughout the year of those wins and keeping of the accomplishments, you have tangible evidence. And then you can have that conversation with the employer to say, I love working here, I love being part of the team. Wanted to talk about salary. I haven't received a raise in X amount of time, but as you know, my responsibilities have really grown in these ways or I've achieved results for us in these way. Is there anything we can do to bring my salary up to reflect the quality of the work I'm doing now or the nature of the responsibilities I'm performing now? Again, like this collaborative problem solving thing, you're in relationship with these folks and you also have much more context to know what's valued in the organization and to know the pain points are. So it might be, I want more money for the work I'm currently doing or maybe it's. Hey, I'll take on these new responsibilities. Maybe that's what unlocks the salary, but you have much more information once you've been on the inside and you know like, oh, my boss hates when I talk about feelings, but they love when I talked about savings for the company, right? And so then that's the language you speak to the boss. Sometimes it's understanding what their pressure points are. And so if you can frame this ask, not so much to benefit you, but to benefit them, like it speaks to your boss's pressure points and how maybe realigning your responsibilities in this way will help the boss. And also you might get more money for doing it. Like that could also be a win-win.
Caitlin [00:43:03] I love that. The ongoing conversation that's like a collaborative. You're like, let's define the problem together or just like the growth. Let's reflect on that growth. And then like, hey, and I'm assuming if they say no, you say, okay, what like, let's attach a timeline to this. Should I check back in with you in six months? And so maybe we can figure out from there to let them know, but also yourself know, like I'm gonna do this again. Right, and what would you need to see from me?
Suzanne [00:43:34] Right, if they say, well, we're not ready or we're now comfortable with it. Okay, well what would you need to see in what amount of time? And that gives you your, those are your marching orders. Like generate evidence that you've done those things or exceeded those things in that window, makes it much harder for them to say no. And at that point, you might realize, wow, this place isn't valuing me in the way that I thought maybe it's time to move on. But I would give the current employer the opportunity. To correct the situation first before you walk out the door. Yeah.
Caitlin [00:44:11] Suzanne, thank you so much for your time. I feel like this, we should all get this like at the end of high school and then again in the middle of college and then when we enter the workforce, like these conversations about how to think of it because it changes for each chapter of our life too. I feel I'll be catching up for a long time.
Suzanne [00:44:33] It's like everything though, you can only hear it when you're ready for it.
Caitlin [00:44:41] That's why I made this podcast so I could ask Sara the same investing questions again and again and so one time I'll be able to learn it.
Sara [00:44:48] One time it'll be, you'll be ready for it one time.
Caitlin [00:44:52] I'm always waiting to be ready for the answers. Do you have a question about finance or investing? Send it to us in an email or voice memo to our website, womenontheverge.com. Don't worry, Sara will answer it. I won't.
Sara [00:45:11] Hey, Women on the Verge, we want you to know that economic abuse isn't always obvious, but it's a powerful form of control. Maybe a partner limits your access to money, sabotages your work or racks up debt in your name. If any of this feels familiar, please know you're not alone and support is out there. Learn more at thehotline.org or call 800-799-
Caitlin [00:45:36] Our podcast is edited by our co-producer, Kelly West with music by Bad, Bad Hats and Devmo. I know the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in
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