Season 4, Episode 5: Too Much Stuff?
How Clutter Hijacks Our Time, Money, and Sanity, But We’re Still Good People
If you’ve bought six pairs of cheap, mediocre black leggings instead of one quality pair to “save money”, this episode is for you.
Caitlin invited her lifelong family friend who happens to be an international home-organizing legend and life-decluttering queen, Shira Gill, to talk about how owning less stuff can actually buy you more time, money, and mental peace.
What’s that like??
Caitlin admits she might be Pigpen from Peanuts if Pigpen also had a kid, a car full of granola bar wrappers, leaking dog water bowls, and a complicated relationship with Buy Nothing groups.
Shira tells us about her “rule of one” and Caitlin tries to hide her hostility towards someone who’s so “rational” and doesn’t have all available surfaces covered in 17-step projects that will never happen. (But seriously, what would you do with a maybe-non-working-but-maybe-valuable Frogger console from 1983??)
Shira gives lots of good, practical, non-judgy advice about managing external chaos and the tyranny of following clothing and parenting trends.
Oh! And Sara’s here too! She and Shira get in cahoots about how financial clutter and house clutter might actually be the same species.
We highly recommend getting lots more Shira (she takes up no counter space!) at @shira_gill on Instagram, on Substack or buy her latest book, LifeStyled!
Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions, or just say hi! on our Ask Us page!
We have the social medias!! Here’s our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn.
This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.
Transcripts for Season 4, Episode 5: Too Much Stuff? How Clutter Hijacks Our Time, Money, and Sanity, But We’re Still Good People
Caitlin [00:00:03] Welcome to Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough, where we're figuring out finance one dumb question at a time. I'm Caitlin Meredith, a mediator and coach based in the Bay Area.
Sara [00:00:18] I'm Sara Glakas, investor, advisor, and founder of BlackBarn Financial and the Austin Women's Investing Group, which you can find on Meetup. Can you text this show to a friend? We want more money, friends. And if you leave us a review, not only does it help other women on the verge discover the show, it makes us feel like a secret admirer delivered a basket of breakfast tacos.
Caitlin [00:00:39] Today, we have family friend, known forever, Shira Gill, who is now no longer my like younger cousin, but is actually a professional in her own right, and has written all these books. But you're, I wanna say a home organizing expert, but I feel like. You've moved into lifestyle as well, like much more of a larger edit. So would you introduce yourself the way you wish other people would introduce you?
Shira [00:01:17] Sure, I love that. Yeah, I'm always refining the introduction, right? Because I was a professional organizer for about 12 years and then really segued into writing books. So I've now published three books in a row, kind of back-to-back on how to edit your home and life and mind. And that's really how I would describe my work is it's designed to help people cut every type of clutter, physical, mental, emotional clutter.
Caitlin [00:01:44] Yeah, and I have so much of that. I feel like this whole episode could just be a video tour of all the clutter I want to clean up. Like, we'll go into my brain, a scary, dark place, and then we'll work our way to my bathroom. And then all done. But I think what would serve our listeners more, especially in thinking about. So the first book that I know of is Minimalista, and that's kind of been your brand, right? Yes. And it's funny because I associate minimalism with wealth, which is a funny kind of thing. It's like, oh, I have all these choices, but I'm not going to use them because I'm like virtuous in this funny way. But that's not the vibe I get from you at all. So I wanted you to kind of like
Shira [00:02:34] Oh, let's unpack that. Yeah. I've actually never heard that, and that's really fascinating because I think when I kind of decided to carve out my minimalist path, I was really struggling because my version of minimalism in my head from what I had seen was like a stark white room or like a guy living in a van down by the river. And it was really like not a sexy, appealing version. Of how to live a life, right? And I was like, I love beauty and I love esthetics and design and fashion, but I hate clutter and I loved simplifying. And my kind of version of minimalism really, I think started when I became a mom because there was so much pressure to consume and everybody was telling me all of the things and the gear and the gadgets that I needed. And I think I had this sort of light bulb moment and decided I really want to do motherhood differently and I want to have less stuff, less clutter, less to manage. And I really equated it with freedom. So I think when I think about minimalism, I think of freeing up time and energy and money and resources to then allocate to the fun stuff. So it's really like this empowering tool. Rather than scarcity or deprivation or even, I guess this kind of like elite version that you have in your head. I think it's really about intentionality.
Caitlin [00:04:15] Um, I also want to tell listeners that Sara is here, even though I steam roll right over her in every introduction, Sara, can you give proof of life so they know you're here?
Sara [00:04:25] I am here, and I'm very excited about this. And I do have a bunch of questions for Shira, but I'll let you continue on, Caitlin. OK.
Caitlin [00:04:33] And I can see you ready to jump in. Yeah, okay, enough from you. Perf of life has been achieved. Yeah, OK, enough already. OK, so I love that you were equating it with van life, because I was an aid worker for 14 years and really did live out of a duffel bag. And it was an amazing, intense time for many reasons. But also, I'm just, as you talk, realize it was so simple. I had four total outfits. I had like... The toiletry bag was all it didn't take up a whole bathroom counter because I couldn't travel with that and so even though often the focus was like oh I don't have a home it did free up my mind from all those like micro decisions that I make now on a daily basis either at the grocery store or online shopping or it was like that just wasn't and also the environment I was in but I don't think I recognize how much space it takes up in my mind now, just managing all the stuff that you have. Even if you love it all, it's like bandwidth.
Shira [00:05:46] Yeah, it's about reducing distraction, right? It's like the way that I think about it in a nutshell is like minimalism is about clarifying what's most essential and then removing the distraction that stands in the way. So I think the first step for people is always deciding like, what do I want more of? What does a good well-lived life look like for me? And then kind of starting to examine in that context You know, now do the things that I fill my home with serve an aid in getting this vision? Or is it putting up an obstacle that's in my way? So like a quick example for me, you know, when I became a mom, I was like, my vision of motherhood is I want to be out in the world. I want be traveling. I don't want to sacrifice my fun life. I want to be able to, like, go to a restaurant. Don't let these.
Caitlin [00:06:40] Don't let these rugrats slow you down.
Shira [00:06:42] Yeah, get in the way. So I was like, all this gear and stuff feels very stressful to me. And if I don't have it, it just means I can throw my baby in my baby carrier and hit the streets and have a fun day and spend less time cleaning and organizing and moving piles around, which is really what started my business was just talking to women who were so overwhelmed. And specifically in my mother's groups, where it was like the number one topic of conversation was not really the kids, it was the clutter. It was like, everybody was like I'm drowning in dishes, in laundry, in stuff. And I had this moment of going, you know what? I think it is as simple as math. Like if you own less, you have less to manage. It really is that simple. And so, I kind of went on this journey of just removing and subtracting the things that I owned, paring down, rethinking, and really found like, oh, I have so much more time. I have so much energy. I know this is a podcast where you talk about money. It freed up so much in the way of financial resources to do the things I love like traveling and eating out restaurant.
Sara [00:08:03] I think that's really interesting. Could you elaborate a little bit on the impact on the financial side that simplifying and minimizing the stuff, like what financial impact that had?
Shira [00:08:18] Yeah, so many. So I mean, one thing that I've noticed with clients who have a lot of stuff is they constantly lose and misplace things, and so they rebuy them because they don't know that they have them. And even I noticed, like, we went through a phase where we just kept buying lasagna noodles because everybody felt, like I don't know, worried about a lasagna noodle shortage. But we realized at one point I think we had like 16 boxes of lasagna doodles. And so I realized the less you own, the less you lose things. And so, I started practicing, I call it the rule of one. So for things that I would typically lose like sunglasses, a water bottle, those types of things, I started investing in just one hero object. And so what happened was I've now had one water bottle for seven years that's like my ride Good job. Oh my gosh. I know. It checks all of my boxes. It keeps the drinks cold. It fits in the cup holder. It's sustainable. It's plastic free. And I was realizing instead of just buying things again and again, I can invest in the one really nice thing that I take care of. So more time, more energy, but also more money. Because if you have one water bottle and you take care of it. You're not buying water bottles all the time, or... Which are expensive these days. They're so expensive. And same with my kids who used to always lose all of the parts of their various lunchboxes. Wait, do your kids only have one water bottle? I know what- Yeah, so one water- They're older than ours. I know, but this started a long time ago. One water bottle and one stainless steel lunchbox. No components, no other parts. And I'm like, this is what you got. You've got to manage it. Oh my gosh, you're my hero. I will say, like, they have stopped losing things because they have one thing, and it's nice, and they picked it out, right? Like, I was like, you can pick your really nice water bottle and your really lunchbox, but that is it. And like, it's your duty to bring it home from school and put it in the sink when you come home. So I think, and likewise, I mean, I think I used to spend a lot of money on clothes. And I would find that I would buy a lot of versions of the mediocre thing instead of just buying the one really nice thing. And so now I have a very streamlined wardrobe. I share a three foot by six foot closet with my husband. Every single item that we own wardrobe wise fits in this tiny little box. But every piece I love. And so it's like fewer better of everything
Caitlin [00:11:15] Wait, is this like buying six pairs of leggings at Target or Old Navy, because you don't think you should like splurge on the, I don't know how to say it, Viori or like Viyoga or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we buy all these crappy ones because we're like, no, I mean, who pays that much for a pair of leggings, whatever. But then we end up not only with like the equivalent amount of money in leggings. But also ones we don't love as much. And then that's like X amount, more laundry, more storage, more everything else.
Shira [00:11:51] So I own five pairs of leggings that I love, five sports bras that I loved, and I do yoga five times a week. That's like, you know, hot core power, sweaty yoga. And I just realized like, I don't want to feel like a schlump in these classes, but I figured out like, if I do my laundry once a week and I have like five tops and five bottoms, I'm set and I can tell you like they hold up because they're such high quality and it's much less than buying five pairs of mediocre leggings, like one pair of the good ones.
Caitlin [00:12:34] Okay, so what's going on in there? You're so much better at this than I am, too. Well, I'm like...
Shira [00:12:38] Well, I'm like, wait till you hear about our shared bathroom, which has like three products for our entire family. I do want to get to that.
Caitlin [00:12:47] Oh, we're going to your bathroom.
Sara [00:12:49] Like my brain went to what is really, really common in personal finance circles, which is buying in bulk, right? Like you go to Costco and you buy in bulk because the price per item is so much less than one box of lasagna noodles when you can get 50 boxes of lasagne noodles for 25% less per unit. Like, so what is your take on the bulk purchasing from a personal finance perspective versus this rule of one. That you're cutting in with.
Shira [00:13:19] It's a really good and fair point. And I will say, in my case, we just don't have storage for bulk items. We literally live in a 1200 square foot bungalow that was built in 1916. We have no garage. We had no attic. We've no storage closets. And so... It's not really on the table in terms of just simple math. Yes, I think if you're a person who knows what you like and you know what you're kind of. Household or pantry staples are that you use again and again on repeat. I think it is worthwhile to make those bulk investments, you know, to go to Costco and get like the big thing of paper products instead of buying six rolls of toilet paper at a time. It also saves on plastic waste because you're having that once instead of maybe like six repeated times. So I'm all for But what I see a lot is people buying things in bulk that they don't necessarily use. And so then it creates more waste and more clutter. So I would just say be really intentional about what you're buying in bulk. And be really clear, these are the granola bars that our whole family eats and loves before you buy 100 of them. Yeah, yeah. Because I do see a lot of pantry waste, a lot. I mean, I've had people break down in tears because of how much food waste they have because of that kind of big bulk purchasing that just doesn't end up being practical or useful for their family.
Caitlin [00:15:02] So you're literally saving money per unit, but if you're wasting all of it anyway, or even half of it, you're not even benefiting from those savings.
Shira [00:15:10] Correct, because you're just buying something you're not actually needing. So we have a pretty minimal pantry, and we shop for fresh groceries once a week. But I don't stockpile non-perishable goods. I really don't have a ton of those, which makes most people very deeply uncomfortable, especially living in California, which is a state filled with natural disasters. Where we're supposed to have our emergency kits, which I do, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to stockpile cans of beans. And somewhere in my head, I feel like if we're at a point where a few cans of Beans is going to make or break, that's like we've got bigger problems maybe. I don't know. Yeah, probably don't go to me for your survival kit. We're not.
Caitlin [00:16:05] In the prepper zone. No, we're not. And that really
Sara [00:16:07] And that really resonates with me, too. I remember rolling into the pandemic and with toilet paper flying off the shelves, and I had no compulsion to stockpile toilet paper. I remember seeing a press release from HEB, our local grocery stores slash social safety net in Texas. And they were like, we have gamed this out. We're going to be OK, people. And I was like, I'm trusting HEB. I will get toilet paper when I need it.
Shira [00:16:34] And it worked out, right? It did, right, I know. We also abstained from stockpiling toilet paper and Clorox wipes and all of the things. And I think it is there's a lot of panic purchasing that happens, especially in this post-COVID world and with climate change. I think, it's a way in which people try to feel more control because they're scared for good reason. But yeah, that's such a great example is like, we didn't end up needing to stockpile any of those things.
Caitlin [00:17:10] I'm curious about the psychological transformation that you must have gone under. When you're being so intentional about what you're buying and you're not only not owning many items but not purchasing more, the social pressure. And I'm not even saying your friends are like, how come you don't have the latest jeans? Nobody has friends like that. But just your internalized pressure. Of like, oh, that's a fun new thing everyone's buying. Like, what's an air fryer? I should get one too. Like, joining on trends that seem sort of pro-social, they're what everybody's talking about or a new brand that you keep hearing advertised on your favorite podcast. What's the like straight talk you have internally with yourself to avoid completely or be very intentional? Like, is this a trend or a craze or a like experiment that I want to do because I'm feeling kind of left out everybody else seems like the advertising is working and I'm feeling left out
Shira [00:18:18] Yeah, it's very powerful and I'm not gonna lie, I do succumb to like a really good product ad. Like I have made impulse buys, I have, you know, shopped it midnight when I'm bored. You know, I'm a human being, so I'm like this perfect minimalist robot. But I think what's helped me so much is that living with less has been so additive to my life that I think most people make the mistake of thinking like subtraction is a loss, right? But I actually think subtraction, it's like a net positive. So by owning less, I have less to clean, less to manage, less responsibility, more money in the bank, more time to do what I want. And so I think like, I have these sort of guardrails in my brain. So when. I get the desire to buy something new. I just kind of take that beat to ask like, is this gonna add value to my life or is it gonna add clutter? And sometimes, like I love a good pair of jeans. I'm like, I am super excited to wear these jeans. They're gonna make me feel good. I have room for them in my closet. Let's go. But there are a few things where I have a problem. I keep buying the same white tops again and again. And again, I have the white top problem. And so what I do to keep myself honest is I have this small shared closet. I love having my closet look really beautifully styled like a boutique. With space between my wooden hangers. And so if I'm going to bring something new in, I have to have a hanger to put it on. And I'm not going to buy a new hanger. So it keeps me really honest, because then if I come home with a new white blouse, I have to get rid of an old white blous. And so I do have this really, I don't want to say rigid, but I'm pretty hardcore about practicing the one-in-one rule because We have a great set point for our home right now. Like I call it kind of the baseline where it's like everything in our home now serves a purpose. We either love it or we use it regularly or it brings some great like esthetic value or joy. There just is no more clutter. And so I think living in that environment feels so peaceful and lovely that when I get tempted, It's like, well, do I really? Want to add that to my space? Is it going to feel cluttery? Do I have a place to put it? I mean, that's a really good question for people to ask before they buy, is think about, where is this going to go in my home? And if you don't have a space that's really simple, like, oh, it will fit on this shelf, or I have an extra hanger right now in my closet and plenty of room, you might want to rethink that purchase.
Caitlin [00:21:22] I will just say, real talk, your kids are not completely on board. Like, they have to maintain the public space, but their rooms are their own, just for anyone being like, who are these?
Shira [00:21:34] Has brought to this earth. Yeah, no, my teenagers are not minimalist. I have two teenage girls. The agreement that we have is that our primary living spaces, our living room, dining room, and kitchen are to be kind of maintained as tidy and orderly and minimal. And the reason they are on board with this is because what it means is they can have friends over any time. They can have sleepovers any time They can do art projects at the dining room table. They can make ice cream sundaes in the kitchen. They see that it makes their lives easier. And I've seen it as such an obstacle in my work with clients that's really heartbreaking, where women are like, I'm not comfortable having a friend over or hosting a playdate because my home feels embarrassing. There's too much clutter. It's not functional. And so I think that was another goal for me with minimalist parenting was I want to create a space that is host-ready all the time. I want it to be a fun house. And so my kids are on board with that. But in their own rooms, I basically say you can do whatever you want. Until recently, every square inch of both of their walls were plastered with photos and posters and glitter and fake plants and like whatever they wanted. But the common areas, we gotta keep them minimal so we can like keep enjoying this life.
Caitlin [00:23:07] I will say listeners, Shara and I were having lunch and it turned out, what was the day the Taylor Swift tickets were going on sale in the U.S. And so we were going to leave lunch early and I said, oh, I can give you a ride to pick up your daughter. And then I realized Shara will be coming into my car and I'm like, give me 10 minutes. And I ran to my car. It was like. Someone outside on the sidewalk would have been like, what, there's like a feral dog in there. I was just like throwing stuff in the backpack. I was like, oh my God, okay, now you can come. And like, I have so much clutter. I feel like pig pen and the peanuts that like clutter is just like in my aura and follows me around.
Shira [00:23:54] It is a big deal. I mean I have had people literally say you can't come into my home because and and the thing is there is a common misconception that professional organizers are going to judge you. That is the last thing that we do. Like we are helpers who want to create transformation and change. We're not there to point and laugh, but I will say like I've had literally friends of mine who are like you can come over right now because I'm embarrassed. And so I think of that as like a real obstacle if you can't invite a good friend over. That feels like a burden to me.
Sara [00:24:33] I mean I'm thinking about that and what sounds like like this point of overwhelm people get to right where they're like I can't even have you into my home right like I'm at that point where like that piece is shutting down so I'm wondering like what do you think is the very first step that people should take when they realize they're at that point of overwhelming they really want to make a change and I do think that this is all relevant to the financial sphere because I see. As a financial advisor that sometimes people will come in with their with their financial lives in a similar state of many many accounts many many holdings i'm not sure everything is not sure how everything fits together so i think that. There's a point of commonality there between what you do and what i do so i'd love to hear what you think is kind of the first step for people when they get to that point.
Shira [00:25:26] Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think number one is deciding, why do I want to declutter my home? What is my compelling why? What's the big reason behind it? Because otherwise it really can just feel like another overwhelming task on your to-do list. So I always start with that. What's this fun vision that you're working towards? Is it that you want to have more parties at your house? You want to save money for a big fun goal? Like, what's the thing that kind of lights you up? So that it's not just like because I feel like I should. That's not a great reason and I do think a lot of people are like I'm supposed to be organized. I don't think that's a great reason right? I think it has to be values based and values aligned and feel galvanizing. So that is number one is just like let's make sure it feels really juicy and fun. Number two just kind of a nuts and bolts thing, is I like to make sure that people identify an easy place to donate to in their community. So that can be tapping into a local resource like a buy nothing group or Facebook marketplace or Craigslist free, or maybe connecting with a local charity or nonprofit that feels really good and is like on your path to school, say. Tapping into your local resources and often, this can really free people up to donate more, is a sense of like, the things that I own maybe don't have value for me anymore, but they can help somebody else or an organization. And I think a lot of people who want to declutter get stuck with the logistics of where, how, how do I get this stuff out the door? How do I make sure it doesn't end up in the landfill? So that's number two is like, figure out, and maybe that's just 30 minutes of Google research, in my local community, I now know what's my easy place to drop off clothing and general housewares and kid stuff, and where do I go with tech recycling or textile recycling so that I can ensure things aren't going in the landfill. And so when I do have a big pile of stuff by the front door, now I can knock it out in this super quick errand, like boom, boom, boom. So reducing the friction. And then the last thing I would say is just I think that the big mistake people make is they bite off more than they can chew. So they go, OK, it's time to get organized. And they just try to upend everything that they've ever owned. They get totally overwhelmed and burnt out, and they stop. So my process is a real room by room, one tiny micro project at a time. Um, and so I typically have clients just write down every room in their home or every space that feels overwhelming and then prioritize it. So what's going to have the biggest effect. And based on that initial goal, like if it's like, I want to be able to host or have people over and I don't feel that I can, maybe step one is just like your living room, I wanna make sure that I could invite people into my living room. They're not going to go prowling around in my bedrooms or closets or rise. So really align that or maybe it's you want to increase your mental health and reduce stress, then it's I wanna focus on my bedroom and making that feel like a sanctuary. So I think really aligning your goals with one particular space and then within that space. You want to break it down into the most micro, tiny, bite-sized pieces. Like that could be one day you're doing a 15-minute win and you're just tidying the surface of your nightstand that you see every morning when you wake up, and that's it. Or you're picking up all of the dirty clothes and putting them in the hamper. And that takes two minutes, but it makes you feel like your bedroom is more of a sanctuary and less of a dumping ground. So it's those like little tiny wins that I really encourage people to do I love the concept of a 15-minute win like everybody can find 15 minutes in their day Set a timer and see if you can clear one drawer one surface even like your work bag like a little tiny micro-projects Because what will happen is then you'll go from feeling overwhelmed and like it's all too much to I just organized or decluttered something successfully. Even if that's your wallet, that's a win.
Caitlin [00:30:05] I think there is such an overlap. I was thinking, Sara, I just had this flashback to the first time I came to see you when I was a student in investing for beginners. And you offered a free consult for everyone in the class. So I was like, I don't even know what the fuck to bring her. Like, okay, I'll like print out a page from my bank account and one from like a retirement account that I don't even remember what the name of the company is. But I have to find that. And so there was something organizational just preparing for a meeting with you and coming, not knowing if I was bringing the right information, if I could even formulate the right questions to ask you. I just want to, I remember just handing it all to you and being like, now you say something. And I imagine Shira, like, me opening a drawer and just being like, uh, like.
Shira [00:31:06] What do I do? And I would feel that with my finances, too. I am one of those people that's like, I just focus on making more than I spend. And I'm really good at saving. But my financial literacy is so poor. And I will certainly have shame going to meet with somebody like you for the first time. I think it feels disorganized in my brain and overwhelming in my. I mean... So I do, I agree, there's so much alignment. It's like the things we feel we should be good at as adults and we should just intrinsically know how to do. But like I never was given a financial literacy class in any school that I went to. I don't know how we're supposed to magically absorb this. Like there is no class in high school or college like how to organize your mind and life and home. And so then I think women especially have this sense of like... Deep shame that, like, I'm supposed to be Martha Stewart over here, but I have so many balls in the air and now my home feels like a source of shame instead of a landing spot, you know, at the end of a stressful day.
Caitlin [00:32:21] And I think, OK, so I have an upcoming weekend. Let's say I take the Sunday. It also feels like with the amount of labor and decisions that would be involved in decluttering something, then that's not time where I'm focusing on how much am I giving to my 401K? Have I structured my automatic deductions? That we are in a constant battle for time and what we have time for. And The more stuff I have, the more dishes I see that need to be done, the more clothes that I'm like, they don't fit anymore, but they might again. So I will keep them. Like the more of that that's going, the less time I do have to focus on my finances or building that future in an intentional way on my weekends where it's quieter. And so I just see it now as this like tug of war, these competing priorities. And the more stuff that we get. From the buy nothing. Even if we're not spending money on it, even if we are just buying it at Goodwill or whatever, it still ends up in piles somewhere where I have to decide, this is a project, can I put my money and resources and my time and my thinking towards this project? I'm choosing between projects. And the thing in front of me will win instead of like. Going online on Vanguard and finding out why did they stop doing the auto withdraw to my retirement fund?
Sara [00:33:49] I was just talking to a woman the other day, and she was talking about this weekly financial date with herself, basically, where she just really quickly checks through whatever it is she's working on, her budget, her spending, her investments. But it's like a 15 to 30 minute date. My first thought was like oh my gosh like how do you find fifteen to thirty minutes but then shira what you just said like. You know a few minutes ago was like this. Minimalism mindset freeze up the time the lack of the stuff freeze up that time yes so that it all becomes. Like a feedback loop that can work in a very in a positive direction where all of a sudden. Not having so much clutter around, you can just sit for a minute in your clean space and have a 15 or 30 minute financial date with yourself and check in on the things that you know you need to be handling over here. But it lowers the stakes over time, I'm assuming, which sounds very, appealing. I bet to a lot of people.
Caitlin [00:34:58] Right, because the initial investment is a lot, but then hopefully you're just cruising on maintenance. It's not like, Shira, you're spending hours of your week now like cleaning out the drawers in the closet. You've got a system. No, I spend no time.
Shira [00:35:11] Yeah, I spend no time and I have found that I have so much more free time, even as a full-time working mom of two with a husband and a dog and friends and all the things to juggle. I have so much more time and I read a statistic recently that blew my mind that was the average person spends between two to four hours per day just managing stuff. And that includes like pondering a new purchase, researching what they're gonna buy and if they're going to buy it, returning things they no longer want, cleaning, organizing, dusting, looking for the lost stuff. So it really is like the, what I think is we don't have an organizing problem and this is, as an organizing expert, what I would say is we have a volume problem. And so for people who feel like, God, I don't even know where to begin with organizing my home. I would say two things that you can do that can start feeling really impactful right away. Is, number one, if you feel overwhelmed by the amount of stuff you own, stop buying stuff. So put yourself on a purchase pause, you know, start with a month, and see how it feels, to not buy anything new and unnecessary. So you're just buying groceries and like paper goods and the things you need, but you're buying anything else. So no clothes, no housewares, no new anything. So that you can stop feeling like not only are you drowning in clutter, but more keeps coming through the front door. So we have to halt the volume. And then the other thing I would do is just set up a donation bag in a convenient place in your home, like I like by the front door in your entry, and see if you can pop something in it once a day. So that's like a two-second thing. You could notice that you have 28 ballpoint pens. And Realize I don't need all of these. I'm going to pop them in my donation bag. And when that bag is full, you can drop it off. But just having a vessel that's kind of inviting for objects that you notice throughout your day you don't need or they feel like clutter or you have duplicates is then a way that you have this kind of two-pronged approach of I'm gonna stop buying new stuff. So there's not going to be influx. And every day, I'm going to see if I can let go of one thing. If you do that, I guarantee in a few months, you will just feel lighter and more in control, even without organizing anything. Volume. We have a volume problem. The flow thing.
Caitlin [00:37:54] Like, especially with kiddos, and I've been so lucky with mine, is that most of her stuff is hand-me-downs. And that's amazing. And also, it's overwhelming, because there are bags and bags. And you don't say no, because it's free. And like, oh my god, that's Amazing. It feels like a savings to accept it all, just in case. And actually, what it turns into is like seven new projects for me to manage. With all my bags of like, she's not big enough for the this stuff is too big. She's grown out of this. This fits, but she's not wearing and it's all just crammed into her drawers. Yeah, which are then a nightmare.
Shira [00:38:38] Yeah, so I was the I was the annoying friend who when someone would say, like, I have a garbage bag full of donations for your daughters. I would say that's so nice and generous. Let me just pluck out what I know we'll use and you can donate the rest to somebody else. And I mean, they just want to get it out of their house. So it's like, I mean if people are met with resistance with that, like if they're just like, I just need to drop this at your house. I would then hold myself to, I'm plucking out the few things and I'm immediately donating the rest. Because it is like hand-me-downs can become a burden even though they're so generous and thoughtful, it can still become that volume problem.
Caitlin [00:39:20] And it taps into my reward center that like I'm saving money by taking these in. Like, so I think I'm doing a good thing and what I end up doing is creating like weekends and weekends of dread of like, oh my, that, you know, this isn't even, I have enough problem with this stuff that I'm actually emotionally attached to. Right. Adding stuff that I am not.
Shira [00:39:48] And if you look around your home, you can actually say all of these piles used to be time and money. Yeah. And I think we all want more time and more money, right? It's like these are precious resources. So I think of it as this really easy swap. I'm going to swap having less stuff for having more time, and more, money. It's a no-brainer. Do either of you have
Caitlin [00:40:18] projects. Like, okay, for instance, I have my Frogger little video game console. You know, they used to say that was like a little video, a little game Frogger from like 1983. And I still have mine. I got 27 double D batteries, whatever was necessary to like make the thing. And then my kid and her friends played with it for a while. And then it stopped working. I don't know if it stopped working because they don't understand you have to turn things off because in their minds everything's like rechargeable battery, you know, like an iPad you just don't work anymore. Or if the thing is working. So that is sitting on a side table next to the dining room table. It is a project. The number of steps it will take to find the answer bring it to the nostalgic game. Store and have them look at it but I am frozen here and I think the only reason I feel justified in bringing this up right now is it feels similar to the paralysis I feel with some financial things like ah the college saving account like oh I'm it's a 17 step process I know that I could literally do it but it is competing with every single other thing else that's for my real job, for parenting, for getting an actual dinner on the actual table tonight. So how do you both manage those projects that like spring up on every one of my surfaces as like, I don't have time for this now.
Shira [00:42:01] Right, so I can speak to the physical projects, which I think we all have, right? Like I certainly have like the old cameras where it's like, oh, I have to figure out if there's anything valuable or sensitive on this camera. And I don't know how to do that. So that's a research project. And then I need to recycle the camera, you know, like these multi-step horrific chores or errands. So what I've done is, I mean, when I'm working with a client, I'll consolidate all of them into one place. So at least it's like they're not littered all over your home. So you can have a consolidated place for all the annoying projects. That does often tend to fall into the tech clutter category, so the laptop that needs to be wiped and recycled, right? Yes. I then put a post-it on it with a deadline for dealing with it. Properly and so it's like the goal is I'm gonna do this right but if I haven't done it by this date I'm just gonna do it in the easiest like frictionless way which might be that you're just donating the frogger and it's now somebody else can get motivated to figure it out and get the batteries replaced or whatever the case may be but you have a deadline for getting it out of your life and. And reducing that mental load. Yeah. I also find that these kind of horrific chores tend to take much less time when we do them than the thinking and the stewing and the anticipation of them. So for me, this was like the laptops. And I remember just feeling like this is the most overwhelming chore that I don't know how to deal with. And then when I finally forced myself with my deadline, Like, I went on Google, I said, e-waste near me. It was 10 minutes away. I drove them to the place. The man there said, for a fee, we will wipe them and we will recycle them. It was done in 10 minutes. And they had been by my front door for years of my life. And this was all resolved in half an hour. So that's the other thing is really when you find yourself kind of spiraling and stewing to say. Instead of thinking about it, I'm just going to try to knock it out. Google.
Caitlin [00:44:31] I appreciate that. Sara, I know you have to go. And so I want to just I want to see if you have your last question or if you want to respond either to the Frogger issue or that like financial task that seems like, oh, my God, I have to find the employers. My former employer who was managing the retirement account during the year that I was working because they've moved on. Like how you advise clients about getting to those projects that like As Shira says, in the end, don't take as much time, but the mental bandwidth that they take up.
Sara [00:45:09] I mean, I would say I'm not nearly as good about it as Shira described, right? But one of the things that does work for me is paying someone to do it and just being done with it. Love it. Delegation. Whatever it is, right. And certainly, as a financial advisor, everything that I do as a financially advisor, I have talked about on this podcast for free, right, like maybe I have a deeper knowledge, maybe it comes easier and faster, but My job is to do the things that people hire me to do which is bring me the shoe box with all your statements my job is open the accounts fund the accounts research and choose the investment for the accounts but someone needs to hire me to do it so i think about that when i'm coming up with any number of tasks that i know i could do but i haven't done them so something must be standing in the way and some of those can be solved by hiring someone. But if that's not in your budget or that's not how you want to handle it, I agree with Shira. Like, there has to be a deadline. And done is better than perfect, right? Just get it done and move on with life. Don't let this thing sit around for the rest of time. Or put it in a box. Put it in closet. And then if you've forgotten about it. And sell your house. Then just, yeah, just throw it in the dumpster.
Caitlin [00:46:33] Shira, thank you so much. We'll put in the show notes the links to your books, but will you say the titles of all three of them?
Shira [00:46:40] Oh, yes. So Minimalista is my first book, and then I have Organized Living and Lifestyled is the new one that's all about how to declutter your entire life, and there is even a chapter on personal finance in there.
Caitlin [00:46:53] And you have a very active Instagram. I'm not on it, but I've heard.
Shira [00:46:59] I'm on it. I follow. Oh, sweet. Yes. My Instagram is active and it's a great community. It is at Shira Gill. And my other free resources, I have a substack, a free newsletter, it is paywall free. It's called the Life Edit. And we have a community of people now from all 50 states and 150 countries working to streamline and simplify. So join me over there for sure. Wonderful.
Caitlin [00:47:29] We'll include all that in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on. Oh, thank you. This was so fun. Do you have a question about finance or investing? Send it to us in an email or voice memo to our website, womenontheverge.com. Don't worry, Sara will answer it, I won't.
Sara [00:47:52] Hey, Women on the Verge, we want you to know that economic abuse isn't always obvious, but it's a powerful form of control. Maybe a partner limits your access to money, sabotages your work, or racks up debt in your name. If any of this feels familiar, please know you're not alone and support is out there. Learn more at thehotline.org or call 800-799.
Caitlin [00:48:17] Our podcast is edited by our co-producer, Kelly West, with music by BadBadHats and Devmo. I know the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in gold.
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