Season 4, Episode 4: WTF is an estate plan?

Wills, Trusts, and Sticker Collections: The Kindest Gifts You Can Leave

Welcome to another buzzkill week here on the Women on the Verge pod!

Close your eyes and think of the adult task YOU KNOW YOU SHOULD’VE ALREADY DONE but still haven’t….

Let’s learn about estate-planning!!! That’s the bad news. But the good news is our charming special guest Carlotta Garza-Kilcullen, an Austin-based estate planning attorney, helps the medicine go down very easily. By the end of your listen, you’ll want to find your own Carlotta to help you make a plan and sign it in all the right places.

What’s “power of attorney” and how can we get it for free without a lawyer? Carlotta tells us!

What are the risks of DIY online cheapo legal forms? Carlotta tells us!

Why aren’t estate plans one and done in our lifetimes? Carlotta tells us! (Though it’s a sore spot for Caitlin.)

Carlotta very nicely and supportively reminds us that estate plans aren’t just about death, they’re also about having a say in our lives if we lose capacity to make decisions for ourselves. The estate plan isn’t only a boring pile of documents with random initials and signature lines, she claims, it’s actually the empowerment plan that ensures what happens before and after your death aligns with your values and wishes. What do we think about this?

She also gives super helpful advice about how to find and screen a good estate-planning attorney when you get inspired. Team work makes the dream work!

Oh! Oh! Oh! And someone in this conversation got a shocking high school graduation present and it wasn’t Caitlin or Sara. Have you ever heard of this? What the what?

Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions, or just say hi! on our Ask Us page!

We have the social medias!! Here’s our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn.

This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.

Transcripts for Season 4, Episode 4: WTF is an Estate Plan?

Caitlin [00:00:06] Hello, friends, and welcome to Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough, where we're figuring out finance, one dumb question at a time. I'm the dummy, Caitlin Meredith, Coach and mediator based in the Bay Area.

Sara [00:00:21] And I'm Sara Glakas. I'm an investor, advisor, and founder of Black Barn Financial and the Austin Women's Investing Group, which can be found on Meetup and Facebook. If you're a new listener, we have over 46 episodes explaining everything from what insurance is to how to open an investment account. Anyone getting married? Then you might want to listen to Should We Talk About a Preenup? It's episode six of season three. Check it out. Welcome, everybody. I am so excited today. We are talking about, for me, one of the most daunting topics in kind of the financial sphere, which is estate planning. And so I have looped in my good friend and also my estate planning attorney, Carlotta Garza-Kilcullen. So she's here. She's an associate attorney at Hughes Vandervoeg Williams here in Austin, Texas. And she has graciously offered to come on our podcast and answer all of our dumb questions about estate planning, which I'm sure we'll have plenty.

Caitlin [00:01:30] But I didn't know that Carlotta was your estate planning attorney. Now I'm just going to ask her a bunch of personal questions.

Sara [00:01:36] I've done zero percent of the homework, including actually signing an engagement letter. It's early in the process. She emailed me a bunch of stuff, and I said, thumbs up. I'll get to it. And then I just think about it every day. And I think this is common to this, right? I think about every day, and look at those kids of mine and their stupid faces. And I just like, oh my gosh, the stakes are so high. I'm having a hard time moving forward on this. And so hopefully This is like the kick in the pants that I need to redo. We have estate planning documents, but they're 12 years old, probably. And so just thinking about like what life looks like now and what life is gonna look like when I'm not here anymore is.

Caitlin [00:02:22] Is that a really common story, Carlotta, that people are like, I know this is part of being an adult, part of a parent, part of whatever. Like, I imagine every, nobody goes to cocktail parties anymore, but whatever, that version. Everyone's like, oh God, I should, I know I should do that.

Carlotta [00:02:42] Yes, that is very common. Most of the time when I meet with new clients, they say, we've been meaning to do this for 20 years, or we've meaning to this since we got married, and we've married for 25 years, and we just haven't done it, and that is a really common experience, and I think no one likes to talk to a lawyer and pay for a lawyer, and no one like to think about end of life or death, and so I get it, I wouldn't wanna pay me either. Um, next year.

Caitlin [00:03:11] Next to a tax attorney, you're like the last on our list.

Carlotta [00:03:15] Right. Yeah. And so, you know, most people, when they call me, they've either just had a baby and they're really excited or someone has died and they are really sad or they've just gotten divorced and they trying to figure things out. And in all of those scenarios, the needs are different and the reasons or the barriers that would keep you from finishing your estate plan are different. And so Yes, I think people don't like to think about this and talk about this, because it's hard to think and talk. I'm a little bit desensitized because I think about it all day long. But, yes. Heads up, you're all going to die. Right, well, yeah. That's just him. And I never want to say, like, when you pass away. So I'll say, you know, if you passed away and they'll be like, I mean, when, right? I don't know. I don't wanna say that to you, you just met. Um, so yes, it's common that people put this off. No one really wants to do this. And I think, yeah, a lot of the people that I talked to have had kind of something that a catalyst that triggered them to give me a call, whether it's that they had a negative experience with a parent passing away with that probate process and their estate or yeah, divorce, having a kid, getting married. I always like when people call me when it's good news, right? Like I just got married or just had a baby. But that's not as common.

Caitlin [00:04:41] I have another complaint about your services. Okay. You're great. Is this a wrong... I'm tearing up.

Carlotta [00:04:49] Well, I don't

Caitlin [00:04:49] Well, I just need to get it out of my system before we can then ask you like useful questions. What I realized is I was one of those clients and not with you, but when I was pregnant, I was like, okay, if I'm ever going to become adult, like better check these things off the list now. And so I did my estate and my all that planning and wrote all the documents, everything then that was 10 years ago. What? And then I'm like, I have to do that again. Like, I'm still basking in the glow of having done it at all. And I felt like when I was doing it, it was checked off forever. And not only have 10 years passed, I moved to a different state. I then found out that I now have to do it in my new state of California. And that's a real bummer. It's not a woman done. Truly devastating. Yeah. I feel like we are given false news that it's like you have to do it not you have to do every five to ten years or also which I don't blame on you for my lack of understanding about it. But I do think that is a misperception that I'm still holding on to that like oh I done it. I'm one of the good ones. And I'm like, wait, now I'm back in the pack of the people who still have to do it. Well, yes, very sad.

Carlotta [00:06:17] So sorry to confirm that. But I will say, if you did, it sounds like you prepared documents in one state valid in that state, and then you moved in the event of an emergency or death, those documents would still work. They just likely wouldn't be the most elegant and effective process to get to the end of the process. So that's good. And you can, if, you know, I've got Texas documents, But if I moved to Utah and then I passed away my Texas will would still work in Utah, but the laws in Utah and Texas are different. And so yes, it would still work it could still get admitted to probate as a valid will be admitted as a foreign will. And the process is less efficient doing a foreign will, but it does still work. You still have an estate plan. It's just not, you know, it's not perfect.

Caitlin [00:07:09] Yeah, and it's not it's better than nothing. Yes, but it will also create complications for my survivors that I otherwise wouldn't be there if I update it and I will. It's on the 2025 just guys.

Sara [00:07:25] Man, I'm not. Carlotta, this is, people do this with me too, where I'm like, I have a financial advisor, they're like, right, I don't have a budget. Yeah. Wow. I'm just here to get a drink.

Carlotta [00:07:36] Me, yeah, I don't want to.

Sara [00:07:37] I don't want to talk about my job.

Carlotta [00:07:40] We're not, look, I'm not taking, you're not getting graded. This is safe. I feel the hostility coming from both of you. Wow, okay.

Carlotta [00:07:48] Yeah, I mean, I will say most state documents, powers of attorney, at least, which is something we'll probably talk a lot about, are regulated by your state's legislature and the legislative sessions happen and those documents get updated every, you know, four to eight years. And so it is healthy and appropriate to revisit your state plan every four to eight year and just make sure, you, know, is the form up to date. But also, more realistically for clients, are the people that I've named as my trusted medical and financial decision makers, are those still the same right people? Because a lot of the times when you make your first estate plan, you'll name your trusted person number one, who's often a spouse or a sibling or a parent. But then in eight years, maybe that parent is having their own health issues or has passed away and it's time to update it and. Or maybe you've gotten married or maybe you've got divorced or whatever the case may be. I mean, way back in the day, we had these cookie cutter nuclear families and you could do a set it and forget it plan that would work from the date you got married and had 2.5 kids and a white picket fence until 45 years later when you died. And that worked because there was less divorce, there were less blended families, and there were more traditional family structures. And now there's lots of non-traditional family structures that are very common, and blended families are really common. And so I think as our society changes and our relationships change, our estate plan probably needs to change too. And that's not a judgment or a reflection on society, we're not trying to get so deep. But it's just a fact, right? When I was 18 for my birthday, my parents gave me an estate plan. That was my gift. Like what? Yeah. All my friends got like a car or something and I got a will meeting with a lawyer and made a will and was like, oh, I mean, okay. Yeah. What did you own at that point? Literally nothing, not one thing. Um, but you know, part of it was my parents wanted to be listed as my power of attorney if something happened to me while I was in college, cause I was 18. I was an adult and I, you know they wanted to be able to step in if whatever emergency happened. And then they wanted me to have a will just in case. And I was like, I mean, I don't know anything. I'm literally a child and I named my parents as my powers of attorney. And then in my will, I gave everything, you know, to my mom and dad and my brother. And then if they didn't survive me, all to my cousins, except for one cousin who got more, cause she's my favorite. Like, ooh. And my sticker collection goes to. Right, my journal and my diary. Yeah. And then I didn't update my will until I was 33 and married. And, but if I had died, if I died. Before, you know, and I hadn't updated it and I had been married like that would have caused huge I mean probably not because my parents and my brother would have been cool about it and they love my husband but what if I hadn t updated my documents and I was estranged from my family and I have died and my husband had to fight against my estranged parents to get this property you know and so I that s what I mean as your life evolves and your relationships evolve your estate plan should. Reflect those things and we're complex people and we have complex lives and so depending on your life, you may need a complex plan and yeah, so I think every 48 years is healthy.

Sara [00:11:34] Except it really depends on the person. Carlotta, I was hoping that you could describe what we're even talking about. What is, when we're talking about estate planning or an estate plan, what are we talking about here? Yeah. So

Carlotta [00:11:52] Just like a quick little disclaimer, I'm a lawyer. We do them all the time, I love them. Lots of disclaimers. We'll start the disclaimer counter at one. So I'm lawyer, licensed in Texas, and obviously every state has their own laws and their own rules. And any information you get on this podcast should be not construed as legal advice for educational purposes only. That's disclaimer number one. So good. Start the tally. Anyways, and a state plan should cover its documents, legal documents that cover a variety of circumstances or scenarios, and the scenarios are incapacity, emergency, or death. And so that's multiple documents that we're talking about. And depending on where you live, they might be called something slightly different. And so, in Texas, during your lifetime, you are your own. Person, you make your own choices. But if something happens to you, if you have some kind of emergency, and the example I'll give, which is just the example, I always give, is if you're at the grocery store and you bonk your head on a can of soup and you're in a coma, you need a document to confer decision-making authority to someone else. And most states split that into two different types of authority, financial authority and medical decision- making authority. And so... That's usually done with the power of attorney. And in Texas, we have a statutory durable power of attorney created under the durable statute. And that's the financial power of attorney and we have the medical power of attorney. And so those two documents name someone to serve as your agent, as your financial or your medical agent, to make decisions for you or consent to medical treatment for you in the event that you it yourself. That's number one, emergency or incapacity. In addition to those two documents, there's also a HIPAA authorization. HIPPA is the federal law that governs and protects your confidential healthcare information. So whenever you're naming a medical agent to make medical decisions, you need to authorize that person to receive your medical information because you need your medical agent to be able to access your medical records or request information from your doctors. So that releases hospitals and clinics and doctors and dentists from liability and authorizes them to share information with your named people on your HIPAA. And then there's a declaration of guardian which depending on where you live it might be a a declaration of your conservator or of your guardian and that is a document that says if I'm fully incapacitated and I'm totally unable to make my own decisions and I've revoked my power of attorney or I've started taking action that's harmful to myself or to others, and I need a guardian over me. And people usually think about like the Britney Spears situation, which that is technically the same. It's the same proceeding, although there are lots of protections that are in place that should protect people who are vulnerable, which love you, Britney. So sorry to hear about that. But you complete this document. Let's take a moment for Brittany before we, yeah. Honestly, I love her so much. Anyways, so a declaration of guardian identifies those trusted individuals who would serve as your guardian if you did get into a situation where you were incapacitated. And the most common example I see is, there's clients who are caring for an aging parent, and that aging parent is losing capacity Maybe they have dementia and they've been driving in their car and getting in car accidents and they got sued and they need to get their right to drive taken away and they need to protect those assets and they need to have a more serious intervention whether the adult who's getting into these issues, whether they want to do that or not, it's time to take protective action. So the Declaration of Guardian is the document you use to choose who those people would be. And that's a document, it's the same document that parents execute when they have minor children. If you passed away and your kids were minors, it's a same type of document that you use to identify who the trusted people are that would be your kid's legal guardians until they achieve maturity age. And so those are kind of the lifetime and capacity documents. And then there's another document which is called All Sorts of Different Names. In Texas, it is a directive to physicians. In other states, it's sometimes called a living will or an advance directive. And that's a document in Texas that's preferential where you express your preference while you're alive and healthy about your preference regarding life support if you're in an irreversible or a terminal condition. And really the purpose of that document is to inform your medical power of attorney of what you would want if your medical of attorney is faced with that. Really painful decision to continue treatment or to withhold treatment. It's not a legally enforceable document that can be used to chop you off life support before you're ready. It's really a preferential document and it's actually like the main purpose of it is just to lift an emotional burden from your medical decision maker in this very extreme hypothetical. Yeah, and the heavy, heavy stuff. I know this is why people don't like talking to me.

Caitlin [00:17:34] Well, our time is up right now.

Sara [00:17:39] I think it's good to put it in that framework that what you're actually thinking about is putting on paper like your input into this scenario because the assumption is something very bad has happened. There's all of these people around you who are trying to deal with it. They're trying to do with these very practical decision making issues that come while being scared or grieving or, you know, like... Wondering what you thought about being on life support or being intubated or whatever it is. And it can be a document that says, hey, I thought about this for 10 minutes or a year, however long it took. But I haven't thought about it for four. So I think that's interesting to frame it in that way.

Carlotta [00:18:25] Yes. And then, so those are lifetime and incapacity and emergency documents. And then after death, you need a different document to choose and confer authority on your agent to manage your estate, and then to tell that agent where to put everything, right? Who are your beneficiaries? And that could be a will, a last will and testament, like you see in the movies where you identify your executor and you tell them. Who you want all your property to go to, and that goes through a legal process called probate. And in Texas, it goes through the probate court. And so that's one way. There's three ways to transfer property after your death. And estate planners commonly use wills or trusts to do those things. And I think when I say trust, a trust, that can mean a lot of different things. And people have different connotations with the word trust. There's lots of different kinds of trusts. And so depending on what state you live in, it may be common that you use a trust as your operative estate planning document to transfer property after your death. In Texas, it's more common that people use a will, but in California or in Utah, it's common that more people use the trust because the probate system there is, or in Louisiana as well, the probates systems tend to be inefficient, very expensive, and to take a really long time. And so certain states lean more towards a trust or towards a will based on what that probate system is like. So one way to transfer property after death is through a will through probate. Another way is by a contract and a contract is like a beneficiary designation or a pay on death or transfer on death on your bank account or trust is also a contract. And then the third way to transport property after your death, which is something that I deal with pretty frequently. Is by common law. And that's what happens when people pass away without an estate plan. And the law of that state kicks in and that's how the property gets distributed. And the state determines who the beneficiaries are. And it tends to be also a longer, more cumbersome process. It's more expensive to do that. And in Texas, that's called an airship determination where the court determines who your legal heirs are.

Caitlin [00:20:53] I thought it was a spaceship, like an airship.

Sara [00:20:54] I know, I definitely thought it was A-I-R ship. It's H-E-I.R. It's with an H, yeah. For those of you who are new to this topic, you're like a zeppelin. It's not a zeplin.

Caitlin [00:21:14] We needed that clarification. Okay, so it's actually eras and inheritance. Okay. Here's a question that I have. So the focus of our podcast is like helping women get the information they need to plan their financial futures, right? Right. And one could hear all of this and be like, actually, this is planning my heirs financial futures. I won't like, if I check out, I won't have to deal with any of this stuff. And I'm curious if that like, that might be the valid take. And of course, our loved ones, we do want to protect their financial future. So it might be an intergenerational impulse that makes us want to do this too. But I'm curious from your perspective, if there's a way that this actually, other than just like being a responsible adult, that this also is part of charting your financial future or planning into your retirement from your perspective.

Carlotta [00:22:16] Yeah.

Caitlin [00:22:17] Well...

Carlotta [00:22:18] I don't advise with regard to income taxes. That's not a part of my practice. And I'm also not giving tax advice. Disclaimer number two, this is educational only. I don't represent you, but thanks for listening. But there's more benefit, and a state plan is not just a financial plan, right? Cause we talked about a guardianship, we've talked about medical powers of attorney. And so, Obviously, the piece of it that really benefits you is, I think, peace of mind, knowing that you have a plan in place if there is an emergency. And the peace of mine also knowing that the right people are going to be there for you if there isn't emergency. So I think kind of that lifetime piece is really important to remember. It's not just about, you know, sending it down to the next generation. But I think I think a lot more about your estate plan as a financial plan. For clients who are worried about estate taxes or who are thinking, who are concerned with being very strategic with their taxes. And that's gonna be state dependent and it's also gonna be income level dependent and net worth dependent. At My Current Practice, we work with a lot of high net worth clients who need tax planning for estate tax purposes. This year, the estate tax exemption is really high, is 13.9. Million dollars. And so everyone who passes away this year can give away 13.9 million dollars tax free, which most people never have to pay estate taxes because that's such a high exemption. And for clients who are business owners and who want to be strategic about maximizing tax exemptions who are in the really high net worth space, your effective tool. To reduce and minimize tax liability and to maximize your exemptions that are available to you. For people who are not in that high net worth taxable range, having a valid estate plan, it's not something that will necessarily benefit you outside of an emergency or before you pass away, but I think a lot of people get peace of mind and also it's a great way to. Have a little bit of, what's the word I want to say? Satisfaction, especially if you're making gifts to a special friend or a niece or to a charity. And I think even though you haven't actually made a gift yet, putting the steps into place and the plan into place to benefit those people or those purposes that are meaningful to you. Can be a big benefit even though you're not necessarily getting a financial benefit. I guess going back to the lifetime piece, it's I think extra important for anyone who is, has a complex family dynamic, or who has minor children, or who doesn't have children and is looking down thinking what's gonna happen to all my stuff. I mean, I think it's really important for any of those people or anyone in a blended family. With a second or third marriage when there's kids from both sides of the family. It's less about what can my estate plan do for me right now and more about how can I protect not just the money but also the peace and the peace of mind for these people that I care so much about. And I don't do a ton of contested probates in administrations. I don't like to fight. I like to sing kumbaya, make peace, but. But occasionally I do work on those and I mean the sad truth is when you don't have a clean, thoughtful plan and you are in a blended family or you do have a minor child or you have a complicated family dynamic and you haven't planned for it, the attorneys end up making more money than the beneficiaries because it takes so much time and it's such emotional work people just want to fight it out and then I end up with more of the estate than your kids or than your wife. And so, yeah, it sounds bad and it is bad. And so yeah, if you're not in a cookie cutter family situation, it's not necessarily your estate planning attorney will not make a plan for you to follow on how to invest wisely or. How to maximize your income tax, you know, exemptions or deductions. Instead, we'll look at your family dynamic, we will look at your priorities and your assets and we'll tell you these are the issues I see and this is how we're going to get around it so that if you do become incapacitated or if you pass away, we avoid a $30,000 administration and fight.

Caitlin [00:27:31] And as a mediator that works with adult siblings who are even in cookie cutter families, even when they didn't think this would be an issue, a lot comes out, a dynamics from the backseat of the family station wagon come out, especially when people are grieving or when they made assumptions about how something would work and then they're surprised afterwards. So I can vouch for that. The other piece that I think... That you said, I think you made a great case for why it's important for our finance because it is about our decision-making and empowering ourselves to like think that through and intergenerational, like women passing on to their daughters and children in an intentional way and setting them up for success. And also that piece about if we're incapacitated, who do we want making decisions about our money when we're alive, but can't our- and your body. And our body, yes, that piece too. And there might be one person I choose for my body and one person, I choose from my finances and one I choose my kiddo. Those might be three different people. And so that does give me some options to think about like who would be best aligned with a financial plan that I've set up for myself. And isn't like my sister who I love, I don't have a sister so I can say this, that I love more than anything, but is bad with money. And so that doesn't feel like I want her the one planning what my budget's gonna look like for my remaining years if I can't do that for myself. So those pieces really resonate for me. And I'm not discreet. I think all that body stuff, and as I said, I do actually workshops for people to start thinking about the non-titled. So the what's not a bank account, what's stocks, what's a retirement. The personal possessions. And often I have found those cause a lot more issues and hurt feelings and potentially broken relationships than actually the money. We always think about the money, but often like dad's old tools or a special ring that mom had, like that might not even have monetary value is the thing that can really pull people apart. So I'm all about having these difficult conversations.

Caitlin [00:29:45] And that's another thing I wanted to ask you about, Bye! I have a few more financial things. I wonder, there's always people in my Facebook groups that are like, oh, I just do it online. There's all these forms that you could do it on line. It was like 50 bucks or whatever. And I would like you to just make a sort of pros and cons of finding the cheapest way to do it versus like a person like yourself. There's some financial reality piece to it, like your- all you have is $50, then go with that. But just so people can make an informed decision about those options, I would love to hear.

Carlotta [00:30:24] So when I was in law school, I interned at the Travis County Probate Court, and this was in 2021. So it was, a lot of people had passed away recently from COVID unexpectedly. And so I was working at the court and my... One of my duties was to review wills as they were sent in. And in Texas, you have to have an original document. So you have the courier or send over the original to the court. So we physically hold it and inspect it to make sure it's the original. And during that time, I was reviewing a ton of wills because more people than normal were passing away, sadly, from COVID. And I reviewed all these wills that came in. And in, Texas at least, you a higher chance of success of handwriting your own will and having that successfully probated. Than you do with an online form will. Oh my God. I'll give you the numbers, okay? And it's not necessarily the company's issue. It's a user error issue. But I reviewed, I think during the time I worked there, I reviewed like something like 85 wills from the most prominent online provider of DIY wills. And only one of them made it through probate successfully with no additional testimony. No additional affidavits, no additional hearing with no added airship. I mean, that's the only, there was only one that was done exactly correctly out of like eight, over 80. And so. If you're going to go the DIY route, there are some things that are really easy to do yourself successfully. And there are things that are hard to do yourselves successfully. So powers of attorney, like I mentioned before, those are regulated by your state ledge. And so those are online. You can download a power of attorney. Fill it out yourself and have it notarized. And that's gonna work great. You just have to read the instructions, put all the information the form is asking for, get it notaryized and that will work. That's fine. You can totally do powers of attorney for free. Now, do I think that there's a benefit to having a lawyer prepare it? Of course I do. I'm a lawyer. And my, my powers of Attorney that I prepare are much beefier, I guess I would say than the Texas statute one that you can get online, but you can get one online and in Texas, we have a great nonprofit, Texas law help. And they provide very, they provide a lot of free resources. You can download powers of attorney and a HIPAA authorization and maybe even a declaration of guardian for free from texaslawhelp.com and there's instructions on how to do it. And that's a great tool. It's affordable and I love Texas law help and I share that all the time.

Caitlin [00:33:16] For people that aren't in Texas, what would they Google for their own state to find out if their own State has a service like that?

Carlotta [00:33:25] I would Google your state law help non-profit power of attorney and just see what pops up. And if that if nothing pops up, although I did Google California and there is one since you're in California. You're welcome. Thank you. But there are in almost every state. They have something similar that provides free forms. But just be advised that if you do use the form, you have to read the instructions. You have to follow the instructions. And that's honestly the problem, is most people don't read the instructions. But those forms are pretty foolproof. They're pretty easy to use successfully. Even, yeah, for non-lawyers, love those. Where it can get really tricky is doing your own will. Because wills in Texas, unless they are fully handwritten, they have to be witnessed by two disinterested witnesses and notarized. And the witnesses have to sign in your presence, you have to signed in their presence and the notary notarizes it, you take a little oath. There's a lot of steps and bells and whistles and people never get all the bells and whistles. And that's why those wills don't make it through. And also if you miss a box when you're doing the form, you don't fill it all out and you skip a box or you leave something blank and there's a blank in the document, that's gonna cause a lot problems because the attorney is not gonna know what you. Why you skipped that blank and you can't write in the blank. Like there's so many rules about doing a form will and unless you do each one exactly right, it's not gonna successfully go through probate in an efficient way. It still could make it, but it's gonna be efficient. And so it ends up costing a lot more to get those through just because they're not executed correctly.

Sara [00:35:17] Yeah, so you're saving money on the front end by paying $75. But on the back end, well, I guess it's not your problem, but on the backend, someone is paying however many attorneys who need to corroborate or call someone or get the blanks filled in. And that is costing way more than what you saved on the friend.

Carlotta [00:35:38] Yes, unfortunately, that's been my experience, especially when I was working at the court. There was just so many, there were so many that were coming through. That is what I noticed. I will say, in Texas, if you handwrite your will, that's a valid will, and that works. But if you don't include all the information you have to include, then it's not gonna work. And so, it's hard to do a will, to do it a good will yourself. Even some of the free resources that are out there. Or the reduced cost resources that are out there, they're confusing. And so at a minimum, if you can find a nice lawyer, do a DIY will and take it to a lawyer's office and ask them, can I have, I mean, probably a lot of lawyers won't want to do this. I don't like doing this either. Just, just, you know, but if you could find a did this DIY will? I would like to sign it and execute it in your office to make sure I do it correctly. Would you be willing to look at it and tell me any glaring issues? And if there are no glaring issue, will you let your staff notarize it and do the signing for me so I do it correctly? And maybe a lawyer will do that for you. I mean, I might do that for you if I knew you and knew you weren't going to come sue me later. Can we put like a code in the show notes, like use this promo code? Don't call me about that. Password. Yeah, please don't call about that, but it's just so hard to get it right. There's so many rules and the rules are there to protect the person who's making the will to avoid fraud. Like there's lots of reasons why the law is the way that it is, but the unfortunate effect is that it's very challenging to correctly do a DIY well. Without issues moving forward. And so, yeah, I had a case that I was appointed on by the court to represent unknown heirs because someone did a trust using an online, prevalent online DIY platform. They made a trust and they, I mean, allegedly they made a Trust and they were successfully able to put a bank account in the Trust, put a piece of land in the trust and then they died and no one could find the trust agreement anywhere. We subpoenaed the bank to find the trust, but they didn't have it. We asked the title company and we asked the attorney who supervised the sale of the land. They didn't a copy of the trust. We looked through the decedent's computer files who got access to digital files, couldn't find it. We called the notary that notarized it. They didn have a copy. No one had a copy of this person's will or excuse me, of their trust. And so then we had to go through an airship And it cost. Way more because we had to do two processes and we had a subpoena. I mean, it was just insane. And so some people have the attention to detail and are motivated and will go through all of, check every single box, but that's not most people. And so if you do have an opportunity to either, even if you go to like a clinic or Even if you go to a reduced, you know, some kind of clinic, like a local clinic, sometimes I'll do those or sometimes bar associations, local bar associations will provide low cost or pro bono opportunities. Even if make your own set of documents and bring it and say, I need help just confirming or can you look for any gaps, that would be better than just doing it yourself and setting it for getting it because it's going to, yeah, it causes a lot of problems on the back end. So TLDR, do your powers of attorney online yourself, fine. But I do really believe that it's worth the money to have a lawyer draw up a will or a trust just because there's a higher chance that there won't be issues in the future.

Caitlin [00:39:39] Do you have a sense of what the range of costs is? I know maybe all of the country is too hard, but in Austin, in Texas, the range, are we talking like an attorney might charge anywhere from $1,000 to $25,000, but like the average?

Carlotta [00:39:57] Austin is maybe a tricky city to choose because the cost of living here is quite high. But I have seen in Austin that an estate plan, a simple, basic estate plan could cost anywhere from $1,500 to $3,000. But if there's any complex stuff in there, if there is a beneficiary with special needs or if there a blended family or if we're doing any tax planning. The cost goes up because those add complexity.

Caitlin [00:40:31] And if you do it every six years or eight years or five years, is there any, does it make it cheaper if you've done it before?

Carlotta [00:40:42] For sure, yeah, yeah. So you don't have to start over every four or eight years. You just need to update things every four to eight years, so if all of your stuff is the same, do nothing. But if you had another kid and you want to add them and you wanna change your executors, then the attorney that prepared the documents has your file, and if you wanna go back with them or if you want someone else, they'll send the files wherever you want it. And that person can make those changes, usually pretty quickly. It's different if you did your documents in the 80s and you're doing them now, because we didn't have Microsoft Word in the eighties. Okay, look, I'm not a miracle worker. But I have lots of clients who call me, it's been three or four years and they wanna make a quick change and that takes 35 minutes and that is very affordable. It will be different for you, so sorry, because you're in a different state, so I think the structure of your plan will need to change because you moved to California.

Caitlin [00:41:45] So it's more like starting from scratch because it's a different set of rules and okay, that's what I thought. But it makes me feel better if I'm supposed to do it again and again throughout my adult life if I've already done if I don't move again to a different state that at least that you get there's a big discount for updates.

Carlotta [00:42:04] Yes. And I don't offer flat fees. So when someone hires me to do something and they say, I want you to do this estate plan with all these things in it. I don't just say, great, it's $4,000 or however much instead. I'll say, okay, well, this is my hourly rate and I think it'll take me this long to do it and my paralegals rate is this and she's going to do this part and I'll do the rest. Here's an estimate. Here's a range of what I think will cost. But if you change your mind... Or if you add a bunch of stuff, then it will take more time and it will cost more. And if we run into an issue and I need to ask my boss to step in and help, his rate is this and it's gonna increase the price by this amount. And so most attorneys, well, that's not probably true, but many attorneys that I know don't offer flat fees, they do hourly billing, which I know sometimes people have strong feelings about that, but I. I do it by the hour, and so if it's just a quick update and I'm looking at your old plan and I just need to make three changes, save as 2025, come in and notarize it, I mean, that would take an hour. That's very affordable. Well, that's the right answer. Stick with me, man.

Caitlin [00:43:20] I'm curious about choosing an estate attorney, like how exhaustive your research should be. Do you just go with the ask five and go with the cheapest or is like you don't? I mean, I always say like you want it to be a good match with your personality, but perhaps with this, like how much I think as Sara would say, the person who you'll get it done with is the right one to choose.

Carlotta [00:43:46] Mm-hmm.

Caitlin [00:43:46] So rather than like waiting for this perfect magical combination, but like when choosing, obviously they'll choose you if they're in Austin, but for all our listeners that are outside of Austin or Texas. In Boston or Texas.

Carlotta [00:43:58] Oh my god, this is not... I am not soliciting. I know. You're not allowed to solicit clients.

Sara [00:44:03] This is a commercial and a testimonial by women on the verge of a financial breakthrough.

Carlotta [00:44:11] Yikes. No, we're not soliciting clients. No, not at all. Y'all. I'm sweating over here. I think it is really important to choose a good attorney. And it's hard to find one, right? The most common complaints I hear is that attorneys are not responsive and that they overcharge or that they overview. And so questions that you should ask an attorney if you're have like most of the time you can get like a 15 or 20 minute I call it an introductory call or a consult call. And often it's at no cost or I provide them at no costs because if it's not a good fit, I don't want you to have any reason to come after me and get your money back. And if it not a fit for you, I don't want you leave being mad that I charged you for that time. So I'll usually have a 15 to 20 minute introductory call. I'll answer any questions that you have. Questions you should ask, what's your hourly rate? Can you give me an estimate for a basic plan at your firm? Do you have availability? What is your capacity like? And what's your average turnaround time on drafts? Because a lot of lawyers that I work with, unfortunately, are not very responsive to client emails or phone calls or will say yes to business because it's great to have new clients and it's to bring a new business, but then maybe they're not great at managing. Their workflow and then they won't get back to clients for a long time. And so I think it's important when you're a client interviewing attorneys, if you do choose to do that, is ask those questions. What's your capacity to take on new clients? What's you turnaround time on drafts? What's the best way to get in touch with you? Is it email? Is it phone calls? And get a sense for how candid is the lawyer about it? How transparent are they about their billing? If you feel like it's a good fit, it's probably a good fit. If you'd feel weird about it, it is probably a bad fit. And I think if you can ask your friends who do have an estate plan, who have a lawyer, ask them because it's hard to find out. Google reviews. I mean, most people don't leave Google reviews, right? It's hard just from Google if you've got someone who's great or not. And so I suggest if you know anyone that has an estate plan and they liked their lawyer. Ask them about it and say, who do you like? Who did you enjoy working with? Or how was your experience with them? And reach out to that lawyer. And drop their name when you reach out to the lawyer, say, your client, so and so, referred me to you and they said you were great to work with. Would love to have a 15 minute call just to see if it's a good fit. Most lawyers will say yes. And if they don't answer your email for three weeks, it's not a good thing. You know already. And then if you don't have any friends that have an estate plan, Another thing you could do is go on your local, like for the Austin Bar, we have an Austin Bar Association that has an estate planning section or an approbate section or estate planning and probate section or a trust and estate section. Look it up, Google it. Look up, you know, Chicago Bar Association estate planning session and email the lawyers on the list cause that's gonna be, it's gonna list the board or it's going to list the president and say, Hey, I'm looking for a state planning attorney. I need a simple plan, my estate, my total net worth is this. Do you have someone you can refer me to? And if it's the president of the section, and the president in the section this year, the president the section should say, oh, it's this person, because they're connected in the community. They want to donate their time to helping people and to furthering the section and they know who's looking for work. And so I also, that's a great tool as well.

Caitlin [00:48:03] That's great. And when they tell their turnaround time, I don't even know what the good one would, you know, like next week, or it typically would take like two months. Like how, what is the range that seems realistic?

Carlotta [00:48:19] So if you're looking for a simple plan, right, like first estate plan, all to my spouse, and then down to our kids, easy peasy, then that should be a quick turnaround, like a month. As long as you, once you've submitted all of their information, you've filled out the questionnaire, you had your little meeting about it, and you're on track and they have everything they need, and they say, great, I'm gonna get started on the drafts. That it should take a month or less and that's generous. I give myself a turnaround of two weeks and if I can't get it in two weeks, then I tell them, you know, my capacity is this and I'm gonna get these drafts to no later than three weeks from today, which is this date. But that's not as common. I am extremely organized. Before I went to law school, I was a high school teacher and I had a lot of classes and grading and. Parent-teacher conferences to keep up with, so I am extremely organized and maybe sometimes to a fault. So that's how I operate. But if your lawyer says, I don't know, three months or, you know, I'll have to get back to you, I'm not really sure, then that's a sign that they got a lot, maybe too much going on. Or if they

Caitlin [00:49:38] say, a week, you can be like, really? Do you have words in it? Why not?

Carlotta [00:49:45] And I mean, for some clients, for some clients if there's an urgent thing that they really need, like I had a client call me and say, I'm having a very serious surgery next week. Can you please get this done for me? And yeah, of course, of course I'll do that for you. And so that really pushed up my schedule. But, you know, sometimes you have a big thing you got to figure out and you just figure it out.

Caitlin [00:50:09] What are the most difficult conversations you hear your clients have to have with their family members surrounding this?

Carlotta [00:50:19] I will say I'm not always involved in those conversations. You know, I bill hourly. So, you may not want me sitting on that phone call or, you know. Offline. Just being honest with ya. But I have a lot of difficult conversations with my clients about this. For example, I have client who has a child with special needs and that child will likely never live independently. And looking at their finances and the amount that they have and they're retired and looking at their total estate value and the number of kids that they have, they want to leave everything equally to the number of kids, maybe it's three. And that's just not going to work, right? That child is going to need way more support than what they're willing to, what they are able to do with that third, considering that they're healthy. Are very likely going to live for 15 more years. And so we had a really challenging conversation about what would it look like? Or how would you feel about changing the allocation to benefit this child with special needs significantly more than the other two siblings? And if you're uncomfortable with that, that's also fine. This is what that would look like for this adult child with special need in 25 years. And these are the programs that exist today. And this is what that support would look like. And just so you know, if we stick with that split, the equal split between all the kids, that's most likely what's gonna happen. And so that is a hard conversation, right? You don't wanna benefit one child way more over the others, but also you wanna make sure that child has what they need, that their needs are met for a long, long time, and that child could live for a very long time. So, That is a challenging conversation. And what I really do is coach them on how to talk to those other two kids about it. And then they'll usually have that conversation or they won't.

Caitlin [00:52:25] That's when they come to my office where they weren't told by the parents what it would look like, and then they have to deal with the fallout.

Carlotta [00:52:34] Or they told

Caitlin [00:52:35] of one, but not the others.

Carlotta [00:52:37] It's very sad, but that is just the reality, right? Your family has its own individual needs and each person in your family has their own individual need and you just gotta work with what you got. And so another situation was I was representing a sibling who both parents had died and the siblings were fighting over personal property. So you've probably seen a lot of this. And the property they were fighting over was a piece of jewelry, but the jewelry was probably worth $90. And I think they spent at least $15,000 in attorney's fees fighting over this $90 piece of jewelry. And I mean, thanks for paying my bill, but also what are you doing, right? And so yeah, we talk, I do talk to my clients about being thoughtful with how they make gifts, being thoughtful about their personal and sentimental items. And I usually will ask clients to consider making a list or having their kids come in and doing a little lottery system while they're alive to choose special things. Because if the parent is there, then that can sometimes be a good way to handle it. And then I include language in my documents saying that if I'm authorizing a memorandum for personal property gifts. If I do create such a memorandum, I encourage and request that my beneficiaries would respect and uphold and honor these choices that I've directed my executor to make. And then they update that list over time. So those are some ways that can help, but sometimes you have a beneficiary that is having a really challenging time or is in a difficult financial position or is having some kind of mental illness issue, and it's just unavoidable that you're gonna have. A huge fight. And it's always, yeah, it's just hard when that happens.

Sara [00:54:37] Carlotta this has been so interesting and I love that you brought up that you'd been a high school teacher before this because I feel like you are explaining it as though I'm a 15 year old child and I understood everything that you said and I think also. Just the grace and the kindness that you brought to the conversation was really helpful because I think that's what we're all looking for in something like this, that it's a pretty daunting topic, like I mentioned before. And so I think you were the perfect guest to have on to talk about it with us.

Caitlin [00:55:09] I do too and it got me excited about finding someone in my area that I would like actually want to collaborate with. And so it's not just like this terrible dreaded thing, but actually like, Oh, this is part of my planning, my financial future and how I want to be an adult and thinking about my family in a thoughtful way with someone who's has so much more experience. So I appreciated that part too as as well as the practical advice about what people should be looking for in a professional to help them in this room. Well, disclaimer number four.

Carlotta [00:55:41] Not advised.

Caitlin [00:55:42] I'm sorry, sorry, I'm exposing us to information on this topic.

Sara [00:55:53] Do you have a question about investing or finance? Send it to us in an email or voice memo n our website, womenontheverge.com.

Caitlin [00:56:00] Hey friends, before we leave, we wanna pause and say something important. Economic abuse is a form of control and it can sneak in quietly. Maybe it looks like not having access to money, losing jobs because of sabotage, or finding debt you didn't agree to. If this sounds familiar, please know you're not alone and there is help.  Visit TheHotline.org or call 800-799-SAFE.

Sara [00:56:25] Our podcast is edited by our co-producer Kelly West with music by BadBadHats and Devmo.

Sara [00:56:45] This podcast contains general information that is not suitable for everyone. The information contained herein should not be construed as personalized investment advice. PASS performance is no guarantee of future results. There is no guaranteed that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast will come to pass. Investing in the stock market involves gains and losses and may not be suitable for all investors. Information presented herein is subject to change without notice and should not considered as a solicitation to buy or sell any security.